discoDSP Retromulator: the Usual Suspects code repackaged

[tumface]

Gatekeeping dead and obsolete 90s digital synthesizer emulators on incorrect legal grounds is a weird hobby.

There is nothing illegal about The Usual Suspects' emulation software.

There may not be. But I'd be interested to know how many emulations they're making for old synths or effects boxes where the original ROM files were not available on the Internet at all.

Steve

They completely disassemble and decap and scan the internals (gates, etc.) of the hardware they are emulating. They have no problems getting their own copies of ROM data out. Creating an emulator using copyrighted ROMs during the development process, even if the emulation developers have no rights to the ROMs, and even if they violate the copyright of the ROMs during development for the purposes of development, is legally protected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Comp ... ectix_Corp.

I wish people would actually do a little bit of reading on a topic before making speculation posts that imply there was wrongdoing.

[tumface]

Anyway the whole thing even going back to TUS just feels wrong. I took advantage of the Virtual JV because I own a hardware JV880 but even then it just feels "dirty" no matter how legal or moral it may be.

I wonder how many people here, even in this thread, are using a ROM for which they don't own the hardware?

It just seems like the whole project makes it too easy and tempting to take a walk on the "dark side".

I don't see anything dirty or dark side about it. Gatekeeping old digital hardware for an unspecified, non-legal non-moral reason doesn't make sense to me. I don't get it.

Microprocessors can't really be repaired. If digital stuff is going to be preserved for people to try out in the future, the only way is by creating emulations of it. These synths are obsolete, but having a working historical artifact is valuable for our culture.

[IvyBirds]

Gatekeeping dead and obsolete 90s digital synthesizer emulators on incorrect legal grounds is a weird hobby.

There is nothing illegal about The Usual Suspects' emulation software.

There may not be. But I'd be interested to know how many emulations they're making for old synths or effects boxes where the original ROM files were not available on the Internet at all.

Steve

They completely disassemble and decap and scan the internals (gates, etc.) of the hardware they are emulating. They have no problems getting their own copies of ROM data out. Creating an emulator using copyrighted ROMs during the development process, even if the emulation developers have no rights to the ROMs, and even if they violate the copyright of the ROMs during development for the purposes of development, is legally protected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Comp ... ectix_Corp.

I wish people would actually do a little bit of reading on a topic before making speculation posts that imply there was wrongdoing.

Sure but using ROMs from hardware you don't own is an issue, if it wasn't TUS would just include it

[tumface]

Sure but using ROMs from hardware you don't own is an issue, if it wasn't TUS would just include it

They don't include the ROMs because they don't own the copyright for them or have a license to distribute them. No issue.

[planetearth]

Gatekeeping dead and obsolete 90s digital synthesizer emulators on incorrect legal grounds is a weird hobby.

There is nothing illegal about The Usual Suspects' emulation software.

There may not be. But I'd be interested to know how many emulations they're making for old synths or effects boxes where the original ROM files were not available on the Internet at all.

Steve

They completely disassemble and decap and scan the internals (gates, etc.) of the hardware they are emulating. They have no problems getting their own copies of ROM data out. Creating an emulator using copyrighted ROMs during the development process, even if the emulation developers have no rights to the ROMs, and even if they violate the copyright of the ROMs during development for the purposes of development, is legally protected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Comp ... ectix_Corp.

I wish people would actually do a little bit of reading on a topic before making speculation posts that imply there was wrongdoing.

I'm not "speculating" or "implying" anything. I am simply wondering how many of these synths and effects boxes they have in the pipeline to do would actually get done if there was no "market" for them. And yes, I know they're not charging for them—that's why "market" is in quotes. But they're not going through all this effort just to make emulations of the synths or effects boxes they own. They want to share them with others who also own the hardware. But if other people couldn't transfer the ROM? Would TUS bother going through all the trouble to emulate the synth? That's all I'm asking.

I've read about TUS and watched a video one of their members gave on how they emulate a synth's or effects box's processor, and it was very interesting. But it was also a lot of trial-and-error work. At what point do they say, "Ah, forget it, I never liked this synth much, anyway."?

Steve

[SAGG]

Microprocessors can't really be repaired. If digital stuff is going to be preserved for people to try out in the future, the only way is by creating emulations of it. These synths are obsolete, but having a working historical artifact is valuable for our culture.

That's why Audiority is, admittedly, on a mission to preserve some of those analog and digital effects, before the unobtainium chips, like those coveted Reticons and Matsushita, sing their final swan song. It is a great, useful job he's doing.

Now.. regarding this sleazy bottom feeder from repackaging cook socker department.. Hell called. Said they have a special oven prepared for the slimy bugger.

But first.. a few rounds of Satan's anal lottery machine for him.

And before anyone thinks they can speak on behalf of TUS, I gotta tell ya, you got some nerve, fellas. Just WTF, eh? TUS themselves are not at any point happy with this and they didn't waste any time letting their feelings be known. They hate the absolute guts of this and they are dead to rights on it. It is a fkn travesty.

It's one thing to hide behind the "formalities" and cute words, but you can't fail to notice that not a single developer, except the "bottom feeder", although just about all of them could "formally" do just the same, nobody allowed themselves to sink to this new low. You think they couldn't do it? They just as well could. But it takes a special "character" to actually go and do it. Or complete lack of thereof.

Because some things in this world go without saying. You just don't do this crap to other developers if you yourself are a decent and respectable developer. But for the bottom feeder in question.. lets just say, "that train has left the station".

So anybody who says it's no big deal, or even worse, that TUS somehow "support" this or encourage this garbage in any way, there's a lottery card for you too and you already know what that is.

[jme-audio]

Plenty of people repackaged Mutable Instruments open source code, many selling the end results, I didn't see too much uproar.

As long as this is free (making it free but selling 'support' seems a bit close to the wind) and open source I don't see a real issue other than the more these things are commercialised (rather than underground projects) the more likely someone will get sued and the project shut down!

Mutable Instruments was modular only?
Porting something like this to a particular platform to make it available there is a whole different task with usually a good intention behind.

[SLiC]

Plenty of people repackaged Mutable Instruments open source code, many selling the end results, I didn't see too much uproar.

As long as this is free (making it free but selling 'support' seems a bit close to the wind) and open source I don't see a real issue other than the more these things are commercialised (rather than underground projects) the more likely someone will get sued and the project shut down!

Mutable Instruments was modular only?
Porting something like this to a particular platform to make it available there is a whole different task with usually a good intention behind.

I'm not really sure what the difference is between a modular synth and a hardware synth port? The principle is the same, repackaging something 'open source' and selling it (or finding a way to charge for it) https://sidebrain.net/product/plaits-for-live/ - people have been doing it for a long time before discoDSP.

[jme-audio]

Plenty of people repackaged Mutable Instruments open source code, many selling the end results, I didn't see too much uproar.

As long as this is free (making it free but selling 'support' seems a bit close to the wind) and open source I don't see a real issue other than the more these things are commercialised (rather than underground projects) the more likely someone will get sued and the project shut down!

Mutable Instruments was modular only?
Porting something like this to a particular platform to make it available there is a whole different task with usually a good intention behind.

I'm not really sure what the difference is between a modular synth and a hardware synth port? The principle is the same, repackaging something 'open source' and selling it (or finding a way to charge for it) https://sidebrain.net/product/plaits-for-live/ - people have been doing it for a long time before discoDSP.

Let me provide an example:
If there is a plugin for Windows or Mac and somebody ports it to Linux or BSD, value is provided to thoses platforms/communities.
But if somebody just repackages a Windows plugin again for Windows, where is the value and what's the intention? If the intention is mainly to shadow the original developers and make money off their work (and we speak about years of teamwork) then this seems questionable to me.

[glokraw]

All that said, if this just plays pre-sets and you have no controls over the synths at all I can't see the point and its a bit of a waste of time.

An example use. Make a project with an EZ to use eq on a track, and a light ampsim like CamelCrusher on a track, three retroms on tracks, and a delay and versatile reverb on two tracks. Load the A, B, and C virus soundsets on the three reproms so each is a different sound. Start where you like in each soundset, advance through them until you have a trio that you really like. Then adjust effects and save that project. You can load the bits and bobs in the TUS gui's later, as desired etc

[Lbdunequest]

I think its unethical to ask for money for repacked and castrated product.

1. This retro emulator makes it only as a preset player.
2. It doeant really add any value

I personally wouldn't be against a donation (name your price for example and with % goung to TUS) if the repacked plugin would actually add something useful like:

1. All in one package with own custom synth GUI but being uniformal for each synth (like Diva just with non-swapable modules as its not possible)
2. Ability to load more then one instance in to the wrapper
3. Save custom multi presets

Basically working as a powerful shell for the roms

But what this Retro emulator now is just sh*t, i see no use for it being even free. Glad George removed buy button, because it did looked to me like a quick cash grab being plugin priced at 30 eu.

[Teksonik]

I don't see anything dirty or dark side about it. Gatekeeping old digital hardware for an unspecified, non-legal non-moral reason doesn't make sense to me. I don't get it.

No, you don't get it at all.

Anyone who uses ROMs without owning the hardware and without permission of the copyright holders is committing the crime of intellectual property theft. The irony is we're on a website dedicated to the creation of intellectual property. The legality of the ROMS is even mentioned by TUS themselves and the very reason why they don't include the ROMs in their downloads.

If old hardware dies who cares? What we have at out fingertips these days is orders of magnitude better so the entitlement of owning a piece of hardware you didn't buy or have the rights to use is not a legitimate argument.

I remember a time when KVR fought hard against the abuse of IP rights. Now it doesn't seem to care and that is the truly sad part.

[involver]

As everything is legal, what is the argument about?

Selling a Firefox subscription to your grandpa is legal as well. It's a shady move though.
There is a fine line between e.g. selling CDs of your own Linux distribution or just charging people for something that is already free.

Shady is meaningless. Its either legal, or illegal

Legal sets the minimum bar. It doesn’t make something above criticism. Plenty of things are legal and still exploitative, cynical, or just plain bad behaviour.

[SLiC]

Irrespective of the legalities, Retromulator is still pretty pointless, its just a pre-set player without a browser (!) You can have the full 'programmable' synth with a proper browser for free from the original developer(s)...whatever discoDSPs aim was with this, it looks like it has backfired.

Except it hasn't because TUS developed it as a preset player without a browser, they thought some people would find that useful

If it really is useless why are so many people enraged at DiscoDSP? Wouldn't a useless product just be ignored?

I personally didn't find either useful and have ignored both, mainly as a need a better browser to wade through 1000s of pre-sets! TUS can code whatever they like (I am a VIP supporter) but I am not sure something so simple needed copying and redistributing to link to another brand (which seems to be the cause of the outcry) it is that that that seems unnecessary IMO.

Tus plugins have a powerful browser that surpasses original synths. There are tags for categories.

That's what I said! I only use the full plugins, a 'pre-set player' is pointless without a browser!

[beely]

Anyone who uses ROMs without owning the hardware and without permission of the copyright holders is committing the crime of intellectual property theft.

So as long as I abide by, and do not breach, the specific terms of use of that firmware I would have to agree to in order to download that software from the manufacturer, as far as I understand the legal situation, I should be good, no?

The downloads are freely available from the OEM and are only restricted by a license agreement.

For instance, as of now, downloading the JP-8000 firmware expressly forbids me to run that software on anything other than the original hardware, therefore, accepting that agreement, downloading it and then running the software in emulation, would be a breach of that agreement, and therefore, legally problematic.

(Even if I own the hardware, which seems to be irrelevant in this case...)