Fender Studio Pro 8 Released

[ThomasHelzle]

Yeah, I hope so, so far it's rather unstable though and seems to regularly crash something internally, so that a single track either has no audio or seems to have a crashed plugin that no longer responds.

Crashes are usually caused by plugins. Try to identify the culprit(s). Also make sure your plugins are all up-to-date.

Right, plugins crashing a DAW. I remember that was a thing at one time in ancient history...

Well, when none of my plugins crash in all other DAWs I have but do so in a very weird way constantly (many of them, all high quality plugins) in Studio Pro, I tend to disagree about what the issue is.
They don't really crash, they seem to somehow hang there in some zombie state and stop to output audio.
Also the audio engine itself seems to break all the time.
Definitely the most unstable DAW I ever used.
I think I restarted it 20 times yesterday, sometimes even had to reboot my machine since it killed the audio driver (Focusrite Scarlett 18i20) I didn't restart any other DAW that often for such problems in the whole last decade.

I definitely expected a way more stable experience for a V8 DAW that used to be pretty good at version 3.

Cheers,

Tom

[J Veronica]

I had to stop using Noiseash plug-ins because Studio One would quit to desktop if I opened a project containing any of them. I'm sure there were one or two other brands I've forgotten.

Also IK Multimedia effects would be bypassed unless I manually opened them and jiggled the controls. Never happens in Reaper.

Haven't tried beyond S1 version 6.

[dastewart]

It's good that you agree the effect is audible and measurable after all. We can talk about to how much of a degree this kind of 1 sample offset matters under different conditions, now, if you want.

This is where I'm at (because I'm way past arguing the toss about whether it's audible - it is).

It's obviously far more noticeable in the high end which tallies with the theory. Theoretically a 1 sample mismatch at 48khz sample rate give you a 0.2db difference at 5khz rising to 1db at 10kz and about 1.7db at 15khz.

In terms of where it matters then it's mainly any parallel processing, anything multi-miced and anything where you're blending two different version of the same (e.g. bass/guitar di and amp). You can hear it in the high end and in the transients.

If I render any track in a session (normally to save CPU or commit my plugins) then I just use my technique above to make sure it's not affected and that's the problem sorted.

What I haven't quite got to the bottom of yet is how it affects the final mixdown and I'm still testing that. But it's far more complex and there are far more variables to contend with in a full mixdown.

In terms of whether it matters then it's up there with anti-aliasing, linear phase filters, limiting (particularly high end acceleration type limiting) and things like high end microphones. Some people won't notice those things, some people will notice but not care and some people will notice and care.

I just hate the fact that it's even a "thing" in Studio One while other DAWs just render like they playback so it's a non-issue. It's not enough to have me abandoning Studio One but it's a point that weighs against it.

[qtheerearranger]

I mean it clearly does a lot if your layering a melody with different synths and 1 synth is off / as you said if you parallel mix plugins in you will get comb filtering.

As someone who layers synths I feel this with. It sucks.

Seems like the weirdest bug as they can just put a hard fix in to move it back 1 sample.

[jamcat]

Right, plugins crashing a DAW. I remember that was a thing at one time in ancient history...

Still is. It’s the main reason why different users have such vastly different experiences with the same DAW. That and hardware differences.

Which plugin format(s) are you using?
Make sure you’re using VST3. No VST2 and for godssakes no CLAP. CLAP is a crashfest in Studio One, but VST3 is rock solid, since the guy who created the VST3 standard also created Studio One.

You can also send your crash log to ChatGPT to analyze and it will tell you what is causing your crash.

[Crossinger]

Which plugin format(s) are you using?
Make sure you’re using VST3. No VST2 and for godssakes no CLAP. CLAP is a crashfest in Studio One, but VST3 is rock solid, since the guy who created the VST3 standard also created Studio One.

And if you are on Mac: no AU! AU is considered to be “Logic Plugin Format” and usually not much tested by developers in other DAW’s - even when AU is officially supported. I second jamcat’s suggestion: VST3 is the way to go!

[dastewart]

Seems like the weirdest bug as they can just put a hard fix in to move it back 1 sample.

Presonus/Fender have never acknowledged it as a bug or made a single comment about it. I'm not an expert but I believe this is fairly low level tech regarding the audio engine so isn't a simple matter to "fix". The issue manifests itself here as a 1 sample off-set but that's a symptom of some fairly fundamental mechanics in terms of the way the audio engine works.

I don't know the science or engineering, I just know that Cubase and Reaper (and possibly others) don't have this problem and Studio One (and possibly others) do.

[aMUSEd]

Which plugin format(s) are you using?
Make sure you’re using VST3. No VST2 and for godssakes no CLAP. CLAP is a crashfest in Studio One, but VST3 is rock solid, since the guy who created the VST3 standard also created Studio One.

And if you are on Mac: no AU! AU is considered to be “Logic Plugin Format” and usually not much tested by developers in other DAW’s - even when AU is officially supported. I second jamcat’s suggestion: VST3 is the way to go!

I have had zero crashes in Studio One with CLAP or AU - for me the only format that caused crashes with some plugins was VST2. One of the main reasons I still use S1 (F1) is its cross format support which means there are very few plugins I have on my system it can't load. That being said I only use CLAP or AU in S1 if there is no VST3 alternative, VST3 is the best format in S1 I agree, CLAP is great but it's only really in Bitwig you get the full benefits.

[ThomasHelzle]

Which plugin format(s) are you using?
Make sure you’re using VST3. No VST2 and for godssakes no CLAP. CLAP is a crashfest in Studio One, but VST3 is rock solid, since the guy who created the VST3 standard also created Studio One.

And if you are on Mac: no AU! AU is considered to be “Logic Plugin Format” and usually not much tested by developers in other DAW’s - even when AU is officially supported. I second jamcat’s suggestion: VST3 is the way to go!

Ok, I'll try that (I'm on Windows 11).
Was using a mixture of VST3 and CLAP, the latter being the best format in Reaper and Bitwig.
But no plugin sandboxing really feels like going back to Windows 3.11 for Workgroups...
Although my last plugin crash in Bitwig is so long ago, I can't even clearly remember it.

[Enthusiasm at trying the new old DAW diminished considerably]

Thanks for the pointers, I'll see if that helps and if I can get the hang of this thing.

Cheers,

Tom

[heliacal]

Not a single crash here only using VST3. Makes Cubase feel like a slug...

[Jim Roseberry]

I can (in the circumstances I explained above).

I've tested it loads over the past few months so I'm not just guessing.

I was just pointing it out in passing as something that I discovered isn't an issue in Cubase.  I wasn't trying to get into a deep discussion or debate because it exists, you can hear it and there is a way to avoid it which I posted.

I'm not trying to draw this into a long/arduous discussion.
I just find it amazing that such a small timing difference is actually audible.
I wonder if the issue goes deeper than just "1-sample off".

Probably not worth the time... but the results would be interesting.
I wonder if you could hear the difference in a different DAW application.
Reaper is great for test purposes (small and cleanly uninstalls).
Take a render of the full mix (minus the 1-sample off track)... and put that on a track.
Place the 1-sample off track on a second and third track (make a copy).
Slide the copy track so it's 1-sample later vs. the original.
Can you hear the difference?

[Vocalpoint Studios]

Thanks for the pointers, I'll see if that helps and if I can get the hang of this thing.

Do remember too - that each major iteration of Studio One/Studio Pro also (usually) results in a "tightening" of the screws to the internal VST SDK spec - resulting in an even more stringent check on each and every plugin one has - to ensure they meet specific criteria.

So just because some third party plugin seemed to slip through unnoticed back in S1v6 days and suddenly now on SPv8 - is exhibiting weirdness - does not necessarily mean there is a Studio Pro problem.

There are tons of developers out there who love to cut corners for one reason or another and when they do - it may result in some oddball behavior in S1/SP.

This has happened to me twice in the last half dozen years and in both cases - the devs of the plugins needed to fix their code. Would be curious to know exactly which plugs are giving you grief in SPv8

Finally - concur with others on the CLAP format. It can be a disaster and most likely gets the same treatment in standard Q&A as AU does for Studio Pro - AKA - practically zero testing.

Like AU - CLAP is "supported" but that does not mean anything in terms of actual operation.

For success across the board - VST3 is king.

VP

[dastewart]

I can (in the circumstances I explained above).

I've tested it loads over the past few months so I'm not just guessing.

I was just pointing it out in passing as something that I discovered isn't an issue in Cubase.  I wasn't trying to get into a deep discussion or debate because it exists, you can hear it and there is a way to avoid it which I posted.

I'm not trying to draw this into a long/arduous discussion.
I just find it amazing that such a small timing difference is actually audible.
I wonder if the issue goes deeper than just "1-sample off".

Probably not worth the time... but the results would be interesting.
I wonder if you could hear the difference in a different DAW application.
Reaper is great for test purposes (small and cleanly uninstalls).
Take a render of the full mix (minus the 1-sample off track)... and put that on a track.
Place the 1-sample off track on a second and third track (make a copy).
Slide the copy track so it's 1-sample later vs. the original.
Can you hear the difference?

You can see from one of my posts above the db impact at different frequencies of a 1 sample mis-match but I'll cut and paste here for convenience ...."at 48khz sample rate it gives you a 0.2db difference at 5khz rising to 1db at 10kz and about 1.7db at 15khz".

That's the theory but I can assure you through long weeks/months of testing that it's totally audible, especially in the high end. I'm not an audio science geek but it's something about comb filtering and phase relationships.

[ThomasHelzle]

Thanks for the pointers, I'll see if that helps and if I can get the hang of this thing.

Do remember too - that each major iteration of Studio One/Studio Pro also (usually) results in a "tightening" of the screws to the internal VST SDK spec - resulting in an even more stringent check on each and every plugin one has - to ensure they meet specific criteria.

So just because some third party plugin seemed to slip through unnoticed back in S1v6 days and suddenly now on SPv8 - is exhibiting weirdness - does not necessarily mean there is a Studio Pro problem.

There are tons of developers out there who love to cut corners for one reason or another and when they do - it may result in some oddball behavior in S1/SP.

This has happened to me twice in the last half dozen years and in both cases - the devs of the plugins needed to fix their code. Would be curious to know exactly which plugs are giving you grief in SPv8

Finally - concur with others on the CLAP format. It can be a disaster and most likely gets the same treatment in standard Q&A as AU does for Studio Pro - AKA - practically zero testing.

Like AU - CLAP is "supported" but that does not mean anything in terms of actual operation.

For success across the board - VST3 is king.

VP

I happily disagree here.
I haven't used Studio One in a decade so I'm not really comparing to earlier versions (I had v3) but to all my other DAWS.
And neither is my audio interface crapping out all the time with them, nor do those plugins somehow lose their ability to create audio.
I think it simply was a bad idea to buy the Studio One or Pro or whatever update, since this definitely isn't a DAW worth my while.

"tightening the screws" is something that should probably be done on the devs - if you support a plugin standard, it should work. Everything else sounds like Stockholm syndrome to me.

Since I get those failures with VST3s as well, I guess I will just write this one off for the time being.

I'll leave you to your "DAW" of choice now.
Enjoy.

Cheers,

Tom

[Vocalpoint Studios]

I happily disagree here.
I haven't used Studio One in a decade so I'm not really comparing to earlier versions (I had v3) but to all my other DAWS.

Fair enough - however you can't really argue that thousands of us use this product heavily - day in and day out - 365 days a year - and have no issues whatsoever.

Without knowing your hardware, OS knowledge and a hundred other things that can determine success or failure - it is hard to know what is going on.

One thing is certain - your thing - is not a common thing.

Good luck in whatever you choose as well.

VP