PPG 2 3

[Jim Roseberry]

The Analog Filter is a big part of the PPG sound.

Filter Resonance is where digital filters often fall short... and I think that's in large part why I just don't seem to jibe with Synth virtual-instruments.
Vulture Culture recently posted a YouTube video demonstrating this.
"Many folks claim you'd never hear the difference in a mix... and it's BS"

I got Leviasynth and was listening to its analog filter vs digital filter.
Without Resonance, the difference is relatively small.
With Resonance turned-up, the difference is night vs day.
Analog filter blows the digital filter out of the water.

Side Note:
Leviasynth's analog filter is really good.
IMO, It sounds superior to the filters on PolyBrute 12, Muse, and Quantum/2.
Lots of demos show Leviasynth sounding harsh/digital (very Hydrasynth like).
I have zero interest in that side of things.
Thankfully, Leviasynth can sound fat, warm, punchy... and the filter has great character.
The Ladder Filter was designed by an ex Moog engineer... so one might expect a Moog'ish bent.
To my ears, it has character similar to the OB-Xa... where you crank up resonance... play a low note (filter sweep)... and it sounds "angry" (for lack of a better adjective).

[bmanic]

The Analog Filter is a big part of the PPG sound.

Filter Resonance is where digital filters often fall short... and I think that's in large part why I just don't seem to jibe with Synth virtual-instruments.
Vulture Culture recently posted a YouTube video demonstrating this.
"Many folks claim you'd never hear the difference in a mix... and it's BS"

I got Leviasynth and was listening to its analog filter vs digital filter.
Without Resonance, the difference is relatively small.
With Resonance turned-up, the difference is night vs day.
Analog filter blows the digital filter out of the water.

Side Note:
Leviasynth's analog filter is really good.
IMO, It sounds superior to the filters on PolyBrute 12, Muse, and Quantum/2.
Lots of demos show Leviasynth sounding harsh/digital (very Hydrasynth like).
I have zero interest in that side of things.
Thankfully, Leviasynth can sound fat, warm, punchy... and the filter has great character.
The Ladder Filter was designed by an ex Moog engineer... so one might expect a Moog'ish bent.
To my ears, it has character similar to the OB-Xa... where you crank up resonance... play a low note (filter sweep)... and it sounds "angry" (for lack of a better adjective).

Yeah but the digital filters of ASM are absolutely dog shit. Some of the worst in the business. So that comparison makes no sense IMHO.

You'd be hard pressed to hear the difference of actually GOOD emulations Vs the real deal in a mix.

Also, ask yourself.. how often do people actually use filters with high resonance in a given composition. In my experience it's rather rare and usually for quite specific things, often heavily affected by post processing down the line (aka "mixing').

[Jim Roseberry]

Yeah but the digital filters of ASM are absolutely dog shit. Some of the worst in the business. So that comparison makes no sense IMHO.

You'd be hard pressed to hear the difference of actually GOOD emulations Vs the real deal in a mix.

Also, ask yourself.. how often do people actually use filters with high resonance in a given composition. In my experience it's rather rare and usually for quite specific things, often heavily affected by post processing down the line (aka "mixing').

ASM digital filters aren't the only digital filters I've had experience with.

Montage M has decent sounding digital filters... but they're bland.
To a lesser degree, I'd say the same about Kronos 3, Quantum/2, Fantom.
Quantum/2 analog filters are also a bit on the bland side.
For its pedigree, I think Muse's analog filters are also a bit bland.
One of the main reasons I've enjoyed playing Nord keyboards is that their digital filter sounds better than most.

Omnisphere 3 is one of the very best virtual-instruments available.
You can hear that the filters improved with the latest version.
I was prepping for a recording session a couple weeks back.
Thought I'd use Omnisphere 3... as the song was calling for "industrial" type synth sounds.
Using Kronos 3, I was able to find/tweak two different sounds that literally transformed the track.
Using Omnisphere 3, I came up with several sounds/parts that were okay (not inspiring).
I'd say that mirrors my experience with Synth VIs as a whole.
Unless we're talking deep-sampled VIs, my ears nearly always prefer hardware.

When talking about filter resonance (analog vs digital), it doesn't have to be cranked (self-oscillation) to hear the difference. Just enough to where the filter starts to sound "juicy".

These current hardware synths (to my ears) have some of the best sounding analog filters
- Mini Moog
- Prophet 10
- OB-X8
- 3rd Wave
- Leviasynth

I remember the first time I heard the Prophet 5 (I was a kid back then), it was amazing.
Same with the D-50.
Then, it was the M1... as it defined "workstation keyboard".
If you've been thru a lot of gear, that type of excitement is rare when exploring new instruments.
The bar in your mind's eye is pretty high. I'm a day late for the double-entendre

Using the Leviasynth analog filter as an example:
I can't remember any Synth virtual-instrument where my immediate reaction was, "that filter sounds amazing".
Same for Muse, PolyBrute 12, Quantum, Montage M, and numerous hardware instruments.
It's not that they sound bad... but (for me) don't invoke that immediate visceral response.

[bmanic]

Yes but the whole point of the video was that "you can hear the difference in a mix" and that's my point, no you can not.. unless the sound is isolated and up front. There's a load of bullshit and gatekeeping going around lately where people are trying to justify their various synth purchases. Heck, I do it too to a degree (currently have 5 analogue synths sitting at my desk).. but lets not fall for silly propaganda trying to justify our purchases. Within an ordinary dense mix of almost any genre, you do NOT have to have actual analogue synths to make an analogue sounding mix.

What you seem to be focused on is "Do I like the sound of this filter?" which has absolutely nothing to do with analogue vs digital. As you yourself point out, it depends on the filter itself.. does it please you. Some analogue filters are truly boring whereas some are absolutely amazing sounding. Same goes for digital. Thus the whole debate gets even more irrelevant. It's not an analogue vs digital

Having said all that, I always have to mention this caveat:

There are some areas where analogue still reigns supreme and it's not at all subtle nor hard to tell the difference. It's where you run into aliasing issues in the digital domain.. audio rate modulations of any kind, especially if these sounds are played high up the keyboard range. Another thing that hasn't yet been correctly done, in my experience, is the feedback setup of a Minimoog. Don't know why nobody has been able to do it justice but that's one of those things that just doesn't act at all correctly in any of the plugins (and I've tried them all). One more area is when you start stacking several layers of saturation in series.. combine that with high pitched notes and you very quickly get into trouble in the digital domain.

.. but these are for the most part edge cases. Simple squelchy analogue like filter goodness has been possible in the digital domain for at least a decade now (which is why it's so unbelievable how bad ASM digital filters sound and how poorly they are coded!). U-He Diva and ACE being some of the early trend setters. XILS-Lab, Native Instruments, Softube, GForce, FabFilter etc. etc. there are so many good analogue modeled filter models out there that have absolutely no problems competing with the best and squelchiest of analogue.

[zerocrossing]

Filter Resonance is where digital filters often fall short... and I think that's in large part why I just don't seem to jibe with Synth virtual-instruments.
Vulture Culture recently posted a YouTube video demonstrating this.
"Many folks claim you'd never hear the difference in a mix... and it's BS"

What's b.s. is that you could tell the difference in a raw a-b test. I've lost track of how many times I've made blind tests of digital vs. analog filters at high resonance that no one could tell which was which. We've had really good digital filters for some time now. If memory serves, the first two that I recall being able to stand up next to my analog hardware was Native Instruments Monark and U-He's Repro. Since then, there have been many great ones that even top those. Anything by Softube, UAD, Korg or GForce is going to be hard to tell from the real deal.

[Jim Roseberry]

What's b.s. is that you could tell the difference in a raw a-b test. I've lost track of how many times I've made blind tests of digital vs. analog filters at high resonance that no one could tell which was which. We've had really good digital filters for some time now. If memory serves, the first two that I recall being able to stand up next to my analog hardware was Native Instruments Monark and U-He's Repro. Since then, there have been many great ones that even top those. Anything by Softube, UAD, Korg or GForce is going to be hard to tell from the real deal.

Here's the video:

It's quite easy to hear the difference.

Monark and UAD Mini Moog sound great... until you play a real Model D.
Everyone and their brother claims you can't hear a difference.
The Model D sitting to my left sounds better than any emulation that I've encountered (including those mentioned above).
Is that difference worth $4000? That's down to the individual.

Regarding digital filters:
Many are bland (lack character).
Montage M is a great example.
AN-X had great potential.
It's been neutered with low polyphony and the most "milk-toast" filters I've heard.

Waldorf Quantum/2 is a deep synth engine.
The analog and digital filters (to my ears) don't have much character.
If I'm trying to recreate Moog or OB type sounds, it sounds a bit generic.
There's also aliasing in higher pitch register... but that's another topic.

Kronos 3 (and especially for its age) has decent sounding digital filters.
If you're talking Multi-Poly, the MiniMoog filter emulation sounds OK (not amazing).
I brought a Multi-Poly home (trip to Sweetwater for another keyboard).
I thought it sounded "cheap" for lack of a better word. The keybed is tiny and feels terrible.

Roland digital filters are some of the better sounding in a workstation type instrument.
Their Moog and Prophet filter emulations are not particularly accurate.

Nord Stage 4 has good sounding digital filters. Wish they were more flexible (resonance compensated would be a great addition).

GForce digital filters are some of the best I've heard from a virtual-instrument.

I've yet to encounter any digital filter (hardware instrument or virtual) that elicits the same response (my ears) as Model D, OB-X8, 3rd Wave, Prophet 10, or Leviasynth.
When I hear the analog filters of those instruments, it immediately sounds amazing.
You can call BS all you want... but my response (preference) is what it is.

I've invested in some of the best software and hardware instruments.
If I'm being hired for a recording session, I'm going to use the tool that sounds best (to me).
More often than not... my hardware options sound better.
Placebo, BS, etc???
Doesn't really matter.
The Songwriter/Producer is happy... and I've gotten invited to collaborate/record on more songs.

[electro]

How about Roland ACB?
https://www.roland.com/us/products/system-8/

[zerocrossing]

Placebo, BS, etc???

Yes. All of the above.

I’ve got plenty of hardware, analog and hybrids, and they each offer something different than what’s available in hardware, but the claim that software can’t do analog filter resonance correctly is nonsense. That said, a casual test won’t prove me right. You have to be super careful and make sure you are comparing like to like via the use of spectrum analysis. It’s tedious work, but when you properly match things, you get the truth.

[EvilDragon]

Monark had character back in 2013, it is remarkably close to the hardware it models.

https://www.native-instruments.com/file ... 88_khz.wav

[Seafire Mk2]

The hardware it models is clearly faulty

[EvilDragon]

LOL!

[zerocrossing]

Monark had character back in 2013, it is remarkably close to the hardware it models.

https://www.native-instruments.com/file ... 88_khz.wav

I think a lot of people don’t know that they need to run Reaktor at double your sample rate to get audio rate modulation to sound really good on higher frequencies.

[EvilDragon]

Yeah. In fact, Monark loads running at 2x by default, so that's sorted out.

[zerocrossing]

Yeah. In fact, Monark loads running at 2x by default, so that's sorted out.

Has it always been that way? I don’t really use Monark, as much as I use its Blocks in my own patches.

[EvilDragon]

Yup it was! For Blocks that's not the case IIRC.