Zebra 3.0 - out now

[tumface]

Sorry, but, uhm, no.

The MSEG workaround for the VCA is exactly one of those things that we have resolved. In Zebra 2 one had to do it, in Zebra 3 no more.

That's fair. I was just answering the question, given the constraints spelled out. If the constraints also included "the cross-triggering MSEGs determine the lifetime of the voice without holding the note down" I wouldn't have answered.

I don't think Zebra 3 needs this feature, personally. I don't ever use it in Serum 2.

[SamDi]

(I would happily look at a "not lame" synthesisers that have MSEGs which can be triggered by various sources....

Please don't let mix things up. I didn't write that Z3 is a lame synth. The term "lame" referred to the fact that MSEGs are today forced to reset with every played note and are not able to run free or to be synchronized to the DAW tempo because...

MSEGs are best suited for long evolving things. Why cut them short by retriggering them, and what from?

..as you recognize to do long evolving things are then not possible with multiple notes, when it's forced to reset with every note. That was the term "lame" for this topic so far. I hope it seems kind of obvious to you, to consider to extend it with the future feature updates.

Yeah found out some days ago. That's lame TBH. I hope they do it in an update, also add the trigger sources for MSEGs.

It's a bit of a mindfuck and great source of confusion if something is the main rhythmic trigger source and at the same time a receiver of exactly those triggers.

MSEGs are best suited for long evolving things. Why cut them short by retriggering them, and what from?

Why should it be a MF? MSEGs are kind of the bigger brother of envelopes or LFOs dependent if they loop. Why should it be cool to be able to retrigger ENVs, but for the more powerful alternative it's considered unneccessary or even MF?

I prefer the use of MSEGs much more over ENVs, because they give me much more dedicated control over slopes, beeing able making kind of S-curves and so on. Of course, giving dedicated control over reset-behaviour is not everyday's use-case. But, e.g. I wanna make a sound, which when releasing the key has a certain pitch-down behaviour in the release phase. Today I couldn't do it with the MSEG, I would need to mess around with the ENV and hope, that I get the pitch-down-curve to near as I want to have it, instead of beeing able to draw it directly as I want.

How about, instead, just change the MSEG itself over time, e.g. crossfade between different loops.

...woudn't help me with the example above, would it?

(I would happily look at a "not lame" synthesisers that have MSEGs which can be triggered by various sources other than the keyboard *and* act as VCA envelope of the voice... I must admit though, I know none...)

You need to distinct. Making modulators to be (re-)triggered other by note is not so uncommon as you might think. Pigments can do it, Phase Plant can do it. Serum 2 should do it (retrigger at least in theory but it didn't work after tried to test it).

But the VCA is excluded for that by them and hard-linked to note-on/note-off.

Summary:
This trigger by other sources of course is a very special thing. The main argument is, that when the smaller brother ENV does have it, the bigger brother MSEG could or should also have it. But that's rather the topping on the icecream.

What's more imortant is to really make the MSEGs able to run long over eg. 1-8 bars and then not to be reset with every note to have this long evolving modulations not only for one played note.

[jobinho]

(I would happily look at a "not lame" synthesisers that have MSEGs which can be triggered by various sources....

Please don't let mix things up. I didn't write that Z3 is a lame synth. The term "lame" referred to the fact that MSEGs are today forced to reset with every played note and are not able to run free or to be synchronized to the DAW tempo because...

Pigments has the flexibility you need... I think?

[EvilDragon]

But, e.g. I wanna make a sound, which when releasing the key has a certain pitch-down behaviour in the release phase. Today I couldn't do it with the MSEG, I would need to mess around with the ENV and hope, that I get the pitch-down-curve to near as I want to have it, instead of beeing able to draw it directly as I want.

Hold on... how does that curve which you want actually end? Does it eventually end at 0? Because then you can do this with MSEG in Z3 just fine, I think, since you CAN select MSEGs as amp modulation sources for each column of the grid.

[Urs]

Why should it be a MF?

The point is about the recursiveness of triggering and also being triggered. MSEG 1 triggers MSEG 2, MSEG 2 triggers MSEG 3, MSEG 3 triggers MSEG 1. At the same time, MSEG 2 is used as VCA source and thus responsible for the life cycle of the voice.

In any case, MSEGs are a great source for exactly timed triggers. Exactly timed triggers are commonly rhythmic, happening across quarters/eighths etc. or across bars, and then regularly. Thus, if MSEGs are triggered in such commonly short intervals (rhythmic) or bar-length intervals (regular distance), why trigger an MSEG for that? The question is, what needs to happen "on trigger" that warrants wasting an MSEG for some short event, and why trigger it regularly if it could just loop anyway.

If it really is just about the free running part, there's the single trigger option.

We'll happily discuss an "endless looping global LFO mode" for the MSEGs, I just don't think it is really that useful.

[Urs]

But, e.g. I wanna make a sound, which when releasing the key has a certain pitch-down behaviour in the release phase. Today I couldn't do it with the MSEG, I would need to mess around with the ENV and hope, that I get the pitch-down-curve to near as I want to have it, instead of beeing able to draw it directly as I want.

Hold on... how does that curve which you want actually end? Does it eventually end at 0? Because then you can do this with MSEG in Z3 just fine, I think, since you CAN select MSEGs as amp modulation sources for each column of the grid.

I don't get that either. He take an MSEG set to Pitch Modulation at -12 whatsoever in the Pitch module. Loop it on 0, then draw whatever perfect tuned curve up for the pitch down effect. Alternatively use a normal envelope triggered on Release, and shape the Attack phase for this

Likewise, VCA can be shaped by using an MSEG as VCA source. Alternatively, VCA envelopes can be triggered on Release, too, which then acts as one shot envelopes and give you incredible options to shape the release of a sound beyond a standard release fade.

[Charlie Firpo]

I did a test patch that consisted of a morphing wavetable osc (two segments, one was an almost noise waveform, and the other was a triangle like waveform). I sent this thru a comb filter. I then hit record in Cubase and played lots of diffrent 4 note chords. I then duplicated the track and midi 45 times. I managed to play this without audio dropouts. But it was near the ceiling. (I am satisfied about the performance), but Urs: i guess using chaotic waveforms takes more cpu then simpler ones?

[ThoughtExperiment]

Urs, what do you think about maybe gathering together all of the CPU-saving tips into one thread? There are a few in the manual, and quite a few have appeared in the beta threads. It would be good to see them all together, and also see if there's any hierarchy - like, what's the first thing one should try, then what next etc?

Sorry for piling more work on...bet you thought you could relax now that Z3 is out in the world

I can help with the first one, don't use the Yellow filter at max polyphony, not unless its cold in your studio and your heating isn't working

[Teksonik]

In the images directory is a series of 100 png files showing the knob pointer in all orientations. I didn't find a color definition for them, so it seems like it would require one to edit all the png files to change the knob pointer color.

Find it in the pic/graphics thing (p) and adjust brightness/gamma etc

Nice! That works... that also helped me to finally set the color for the MSEG Loop setting Normal/Infinite text. I spent hours trying to figure that one out!

Pardon my ignorance but what is the "pic/graphics thing (p)". I haven't been using the editor because the learning curve seemed to be a bit daunting. I've just been messing about with the script .txt file which I've had some experience with before with Z2.

[Teksonik]

Has anyone had a chance to test this, posted a few pages back?

I ran across something that doesn't seem like it should be intended behavior. Perhaps it is.

Init a patch
Go to the Pitches Tab and on Pitch 1
Assign Pressure to Vibrato Depth
Assign Mod Wheel to Depth as well
Now go back and select Pressure again:

Z3 Vibrato 042326-2.png

I then get this on two different systems (Win 11 and 10):

Z3 Vibrato 042326.png

It happens with the default theme as well so I don't think it's a custom theme issue. The Depth amount can still be changed but the now yellow circle does not change, it remains full.

I notice it happens on other knobs with other modulation sources so maybe it is intended behavior but visually it's a bit...."unexpected" I guess would be a good word. Comment?

[pdxindy]

I don't think Zebra 3 needs this feature, personally. I don't ever use it in Serum 2.

The MSEG as VCA Env is a fantastic feature. It's valuable for a variety of cases. Percussion for example, where you can draw specific Env shapes for different types of instruments.

Then the MSEG morphing makes it easy to have a curve for the low notes and morph into a different curve for the high notes (using key tracking). The attack and falloff of mallets, strings, etc are different across the key range. I used to spend so much time tweaking presets to sound right across a few octaves range, usually never getting it quite how I wanted. Now it's straightforward and precise.

Is there even another synth that does this? For me, the new morphing MSEG's as VCA Env's are one of the best new features in Zebra 3, especially with all the physical modeling capabilities.

[VitaminD]

"Wonderful! A feeling of great joy and gratitude! Great joy and gratitude from both of them."

[pdxindy]

What's more imortant is to really make the MSEGs able to run long over eg. 1-8 bars and then not to be reset with every note to have this long evolving modulations not only for one played note.

Put the MSEG in Single mode, and then they don't reset with each note. After the first poster brought this up yesterday, I spent some time exploring this and I had no trouble doing just what you are describing.

[pdxindy]

Nice! That works... that also helped me to finally set the color for the MSEG Loop setting Normal/Infinite text. I spent hours trying to figure that one out!

Pardon my ignorance but what is the "pic/graphics thing (p)". I haven't been using the editor because the learning curve seemed to be a bit daunting. I've just been messing about with the script .txt file which I've had some experience with before with Z2.

In the Editor
"I" opens up the Inspector
"s" opens the Shape Editor
"p" opens the Graphics Editor (useful for pngs)

That was where I finally found the Knob Pointer (thanks to Urs' suggestion).

The Editor is much faster for some stuff. After someone posted their example of coloring the ADSR labels in the Env's, it took me maybe 2 minutes in the Editor to do the same for all 4 Env's.

Then there's some stuff like the Knob Pointer and MSEG Infinite Loop which aren't even available in the .txt file.

[pdxindy]

Has anyone had a chance to test this, posted a few pages back?

I ran across something that doesn't seem like it should be intended behavior. Perhaps it is.

Init a patch
Go to the Pitches Tab and on Pitch 1
Assign Pressure to Vibrato Depth
Assign Mod Wheel to Depth as well
Now go back and select Pressure again:

I just tried this and cannot confirm the result you see. Works as expected for me. I'm on Mac.