Lately I have been experimenting with using Live 4 for audio recording / audio FX ONLY instead of using it for both audio and soft synth hosting. My goal is to declutter the Live 4 workspace and at the same time cut back on overall CPU usage for active Soft Synths, since Live seems to be less efficient at soft synth hosting than some hosts.
My ultimate approach would be to use a separate slaved host to rack my single and multi-output VSTi's and possibly build layered MIDI loops. The candidate "slave" host would need to either run as a rewire slave, run as a VSTi/VST, or at least send external MIDI clock so I can use wormhole and midiyoke to connect the hosts together.
Tracktion 1 seems to be quite a bit more efficient cpu wise than Live 4, but it does not send MIDI clock or run as a rewire slave.
Project 5 and Chainer do do not handle multi-output VSTi's elegantly, so they are not really an option for me either.
I am hoping this forum can narrow my search somewhat - any suggestions? For example, would eXT qualify for this use, and is it efficient at running VSTi's? Or are there other hosts out there that are reasonably priced that could work in this fashion?
Thanks!
What is most CPU friendly "Multi-output VSTi" host
-
- KVRAF
- 4738 posts since 20 Feb, 2004 from Gothenburg, Sweden
-
- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
eXT certainly comes to mind, because you could use it as a VST within Live. Having said that, I have found Live's CPU issues to be pretty serious on my machine, and I'm not convinced that running another program within Live will solve much...
Of the others you mention, Tracktion is indeed much more CPU efficient (and looking at the specs for v2 I think it will prove to be the DAW-buster that will challenge the old-school in the way that some wrongly (imho) claimed Live would).
Project 5 is apparently another real CPU hog, so I'd avoid that.
FL Studio is a contendor, too... although I found the FL5 demo crashed my system (repeatedly) when I tried (3 times) to open it up inside of Live 4. So perhaps not a solution either.
The bottom line is that to free up your CPU bigtime, you need a program with a freeze function. Live 5 may of course offer that (who knows?) but at present the only programs that I know of on a Windows platform that offer Freeze functionality are: Tracktion, Cubase, Sonar, Samplitude (I think), Audition (but that's an audio only program). You could check if Acid 5 has freeze, but I don't think it does.
So I suggest you have two options for now...
1] Run Live as the rewire slave (e.g. within Tracktion)
2] Stick with Live 4 for MIDI, but bounce down all your tracks to audio (you can still keep the MIDI tracks there, but by muting them you release the CPU that would otherwise be used.)
Personally option 2 doesn't work for me, because I'm not genuinely "happy" with the audio quality in Live 4, and because my CPU struggles hosting effects in Live, quite apart from synths... so for me Live remains a scratchpad for now.
Of the others you mention, Tracktion is indeed much more CPU efficient (and looking at the specs for v2 I think it will prove to be the DAW-buster that will challenge the old-school in the way that some wrongly (imho) claimed Live would).
Project 5 is apparently another real CPU hog, so I'd avoid that.
FL Studio is a contendor, too... although I found the FL5 demo crashed my system (repeatedly) when I tried (3 times) to open it up inside of Live 4. So perhaps not a solution either.
The bottom line is that to free up your CPU bigtime, you need a program with a freeze function. Live 5 may of course offer that (who knows?) but at present the only programs that I know of on a Windows platform that offer Freeze functionality are: Tracktion, Cubase, Sonar, Samplitude (I think), Audition (but that's an audio only program). You could check if Acid 5 has freeze, but I don't think it does.
So I suggest you have two options for now...
1] Run Live as the rewire slave (e.g. within Tracktion)
2] Stick with Live 4 for MIDI, but bounce down all your tracks to audio (you can still keep the MIDI tracks there, but by muting them you release the CPU that would otherwise be used.)
Personally option 2 doesn't work for me, because I'm not genuinely "happy" with the audio quality in Live 4, and because my CPU struggles hosting effects in Live, quite apart from synths... so for me Live remains a scratchpad for now.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 227 posts since 27 May, 2004
headquest, sounds like you've been down this same road - thanks for the insight. My first clue of Live's high CPU usage was when I downloaded the Tracktion "free" version and saw the difference in performance (that was a brilliant way to get me hooked, I must say).
Thanks again!
Thanks again!
-
- KVRian
- 1280 posts since 10 Oct, 2002 from Barcelona
What about Cubase SE or SL? They are cheapers but have a lot of "power"...
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 227 posts since 27 May, 2004
Wikter,
I have Sonar which I could use (and I could crossgrade to Cubase I suppose), but I was hoping for a simpler, less bloated approach. I like the Live 4 workflow but I need the horsepower for VST's as well. Hmmm.
Anyway, thanks for the reply.
I have Sonar which I could use (and I could crossgrade to Cubase I suppose), but I was hoping for a simpler, less bloated approach. I like the Live 4 workflow but I need the horsepower for VST's as well. Hmmm.
Anyway, thanks for the reply.
-
- KVRian
- 1280 posts since 10 Oct, 2002 from Barcelona
Yes, of course, but if you haven't tryed Cubase SE you can't say that it uses a lot of resources... isn't it? You can also use some VST stacks, but i think it's not the what you need.
Anyway, good luck
Anyway, good luck
-
- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
A pleasure. Rather sounds like you may need to go for Tracktion ... but after my Live 4 experience I'll recommend everyone to take their time, treat hype with a pinch of salt, and find what's best for them. Good luck!EnzymeX wrote:headquest, sounds like you've been down this same road - thanks for the insight. My first clue of Live's high CPU usage was when I downloaded the Tracktion "free" version and saw the difference in performance (that was a brilliant way to get me hooked, I must say).
Thanks again!
-
- KVRist
- 372 posts since 19 Feb, 2004
Headquest-
I also have been disappointed by Live 4 as a viable production tool. Let me be clear, as an instrument for live performances, Live 4 is beyond reproach, if you stick with loops and effects. I gig all the time with Live 4, and it has never crashed on me during mission critical moments.
However, to produce with Live has been difficult. First, the sound has always sounded "thinner". Not sure how to explain this futher, other than to say that when I develop tracks in FL or SX, and I export the loops to Live and re-sequence, the Live mix lacks punch. This is actually good for Live performances, as you're oftening running the system through a house system. But not for developing songs.
On the other hand, Live's workflow ROCKS. Tracktion seemed like it came close for me, but it had strange behaviour with Waves plugs and Battery 2. Also, the rack features and the looping dropped note bug just plain pissed me off, as I use the loop function often when developing parts.
Now you are correct that FL doesn't open in Live 4. It used to work fine in Live 3, but as of Live 4, the VSTi version of FL crashes. I wrote a post in the Ableton forum, but they ignored it. The good news is that the Rewire version of FL does work in Live 4. So if you are doing a lot of VSTi work, you might consider running FL as a rewire slave in Live. Another option is to run Live as a rewire host inside FL. The advantage with the latter option is that you get far better midi editing capabilities, much more optimized CPU usage inside FL, and you leave Live 4 to do what it does best - loop manipulation.
I'm just tired of experimenting, so I'm going back to SX2. It's been fairly well debugged, and I see no need to go to SX3.
I also have been disappointed by Live 4 as a viable production tool. Let me be clear, as an instrument for live performances, Live 4 is beyond reproach, if you stick with loops and effects. I gig all the time with Live 4, and it has never crashed on me during mission critical moments.
However, to produce with Live has been difficult. First, the sound has always sounded "thinner". Not sure how to explain this futher, other than to say that when I develop tracks in FL or SX, and I export the loops to Live and re-sequence, the Live mix lacks punch. This is actually good for Live performances, as you're oftening running the system through a house system. But not for developing songs.
On the other hand, Live's workflow ROCKS. Tracktion seemed like it came close for me, but it had strange behaviour with Waves plugs and Battery 2. Also, the rack features and the looping dropped note bug just plain pissed me off, as I use the loop function often when developing parts.
Now you are correct that FL doesn't open in Live 4. It used to work fine in Live 3, but as of Live 4, the VSTi version of FL crashes. I wrote a post in the Ableton forum, but they ignored it. The good news is that the Rewire version of FL does work in Live 4. So if you are doing a lot of VSTi work, you might consider running FL as a rewire slave in Live. Another option is to run Live as a rewire host inside FL. The advantage with the latter option is that you get far better midi editing capabilities, much more optimized CPU usage inside FL, and you leave Live 4 to do what it does best - loop manipulation.
I'm just tired of experimenting, so I'm going back to SX2. It's been fairly well debugged, and I see no need to go to SX3.
-
- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Thanks for the detailed reply nebulae. I think you've summed up a good balanced overview of pros and cons, and I('m interested in your experiences and suggestions 
.
Have you downloaded the Live 4.1 free upgrade? From what I can gather on the Ableton forum, there are no significant improvments or additions to Live as a program at all in this update. A few minor bugfixes and a demo of the new Ableton synth... and that's it
Anyway, if you have the upgrade and can notice any improvements in the areas I mentioned and that you picked up on... let me know please. Thanks
.Have you downloaded the Live 4.1 free upgrade? From what I can gather on the Ableton forum, there are no significant improvments or additions to Live as a program at all in this update. A few minor bugfixes and a demo of the new Ableton synth... and that's it
Anyway, if you have the upgrade and can notice any improvements in the areas I mentioned and that you picked up on... let me know please. Thanks
-
- KVRist
- 372 posts since 19 Feb, 2004
Well, I was super excited about Live 4.1 when I read the NAMM updates on KVR at work. I got home, loaded it first thing.
Then I realized two things:
1. Ableton expects me to pay $129 for that f**king synth, which still sounds "thin" just like everything else.
2. I can't remove it from the menu because it's stuck inside Live menu (annoyingly with the word Demo).
Regarding CPU usage, it's a hog. Run a pad and hold down a couple of chords, you're easily at 18-20% on my P4 3.2! The CPU usage on many other soft synths is still the same. It seems that the Abletons only fixed a few bugs and spent the last few months coming up with Operator. They didn't really focus on some really important CPU issues, and it's gonna bite them in the ass.
So, to answer your question, I think CPU-wise, Live is not a good production solution. It might be because it gives priority to live use, and therefore doesn't skimp on the resources it gives to instruments. Not sure. But to produce, I won't use it anymore...only for performances.
I haven't tested out the FL as Rewire master and Live as the slave scenario. I'll try that this weekend and see what happens. Generally speaking, Live 4 as a Rewire master has been pretty good, and the routings in Live are pretty cool. So I think if you were to use Rewire for both Live and FL, you'd be in good shape, regardless of which you used as a master/slave. Keep in mind too, though, that if FL is the slave, I think there are issues with passing midi to FL, as Live will steal the midi inputs of your controller. But there are ways around this. Ok, I'm rambling now...
Then I realized two things:
1. Ableton expects me to pay $129 for that f**king synth, which still sounds "thin" just like everything else.
2. I can't remove it from the menu because it's stuck inside Live menu (annoyingly with the word Demo).
Regarding CPU usage, it's a hog. Run a pad and hold down a couple of chords, you're easily at 18-20% on my P4 3.2! The CPU usage on many other soft synths is still the same. It seems that the Abletons only fixed a few bugs and spent the last few months coming up with Operator. They didn't really focus on some really important CPU issues, and it's gonna bite them in the ass.
So, to answer your question, I think CPU-wise, Live is not a good production solution. It might be because it gives priority to live use, and therefore doesn't skimp on the resources it gives to instruments. Not sure. But to produce, I won't use it anymore...only for performances.
I haven't tested out the FL as Rewire master and Live as the slave scenario. I'll try that this weekend and see what happens. Generally speaking, Live 4 as a Rewire master has been pretty good, and the routings in Live are pretty cool. So I think if you were to use Rewire for both Live and FL, you'd be in good shape, regardless of which you used as a master/slave. Keep in mind too, though, that if FL is the slave, I think there are issues with passing midi to FL, as Live will steal the midi inputs of your controller. But there are ways around this. Ok, I'm rambling now...
-
- KVRist
- 372 posts since 19 Feb, 2004
Another thing is that Live 4 still doesn't have plugin delay compensation (PDC). This is a big deal for production, and it's had a lot of threads on Ableton's forums. The issue is that Live, as a performance tool, focuses on non-stop audio, which is almost impossible to do with PDG - you'd have to adjust track lengths and sync based on the delay introduced by a plugin. A suggestion was made to just add an option - for producing, enable PDC, and for performance, disable PDC. Again, ignored by the Abletons.
So if you use any plugs that have delay, you just can't use Live 4 to produce accuarately. Any look-ahead compressor or limiter, many of the Voxengo plugs, some PSPs, etc.
Again, Live is great for performing, not for producing. IMHO, of course
So if you use any plugs that have delay, you just can't use Live 4 to produce accuarately. Any look-ahead compressor or limiter, many of the Voxengo plugs, some PSPs, etc.
Again, Live is great for performing, not for producing. IMHO, of course
-
- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Thanks again for the feedback... I think I'll wait before downloading this one then 
. But keep me posted
. But keep me posted -
- KVRist
- 372 posts since 19 Feb, 2004
Dude, it's a software upgrade for free. If you own Live 4, you should download this update, as it fixes some bugs. You should also form your own opinion on the synth - don't just take mine. Try it out and listen for yourself. You may think it's worth $129.