does anyone synth patch design level controlling by aftertouch in conjunction with sustain pedal still sounding?

[5KW1RE]

Hi all,

As per the subject, do any of you configure synths where aftertouch is expressively controlling volume level as would be fairly standard, in such a way that using a sustain pedal is also possible? and if so how? it seems to my tiny mind that with all my patches its either or. if I modulate volumes of either oscillators or amp, then once pressure is off/0 its irrelevant whether the note is being sustained, the result will be silence. can i have my cake and eat it? can i have patches respond sensitively in level to aftertouch pressure and yet have sustain work whereby perhaps it latches on to whatever the pressure is at the time of positive sustain being engaged?

Thanks

[Dirk Diggler]

Are you running in MPE mode or 1 channel? I would suspect you'll get what you want if you go specifically with MPE. To me aftertouch is for boring on/off keys to allow some additional expression.

[5KW1RE]

Are you running in MPE mode or 1 channel? I would suspect you'll get what you want if you go specifically with MPE. To me aftertouch is for boring on/off keys to allow some additional expression.

Always MPE. The question isn't about the aftertouch as much as it is about the sustain with the aftertouch. I think, conceptually what I'm asking, can't be done. But I'm curious if someone had a different answer. Once aftertouch controls the volume levels, then sustain function is irrelevant, because whether or not you sustain or don't sustain, once the finger raises off the pad, the response to aftertouch of course brings the volumes down. The note therefore can be sustaining but it won't be heard. A compromise of not having aftertouch completely control at full depth, so notes can be heard sustaining, tends to sound unsatisfactory from both sides of that equation, the expressive range is reduced and there's a too-extreme drop in level to the pedal-sustained level. I think, that to fully implement expressive aftertouch means not bothering with sustain pedal function, and if using sustain pedal function, aftertouch is best only mapped at shallow depths or it sounds wrong. But again, if someone knows a smart way to combine these I'm keen to know!

[Roger_Linn]

Hi 5KWIRE,

It's an interesting question, like asking if a violin or sax could have a sustain pedal. I thought about this early in LinnStrument's design, freezing the current X, Y and Z values when Sustain is pressed and continuing them until release. But it wouldn't work so well because all the performed expressive variation in X, Y and Z would suddenly freeze and sound like an oscillator, plus you might freeze the pitch when it's out of tune, like at the high point of a vibrato.

If you code, you could play around with the idea as a MIDI processing app on your computer. For example, you could interpret CC64 (sustain pedal) to perform the above-described freeze, but add some random modulation of the sustained X, Y and Z over time during the sustained phase. And to avoid freezing out-of-tune bends, let LinnStrument's Quantize Hold continue unfrozen to return them to correct pitch, though this would require editing LinnStrument's source code. If you do this, post your results on this forum. I think it's an interesting idea to pursue, even if it doesn't work out.

Or if anyone has thoughts on this idea, please add to the discussion.

[5KW1RE]

Hi 5KWIRE,

It's an interesting question, like asking if a violin or sax could have a sustain pedal. I thought about this early in LinnStrument's design, freezing the current X, Y and Z values when Sustain is pressed and continuing them until release. But it wouldn't work so well because all the performed expressive variation in X, Y and Z would suddenly freeze and sound like an oscillator, plus you might freeze the pitch when it's out of tune, like at the high point of a vibrato.

If you code, you could play around with the idea as a MIDI processing app on your computer. For example, you could interpret CC64 (sustain pedal) to perform the above-described freeze, but add some random modulation of the sustained X, Y and Z over time during the sustained phase. And to avoid freezing out-of-tune bends, let LinnStrument's Quantize Hold continue unfrozen to return them to correct pitch, though this would require editing LinnStrument's source code. If you do this, post your results on this forum. I think it's an interesting idea to pursue, even if it doesn't work out.

Or if anyone has thoughts on this idea, please add to the discussion.

Thanks for the detailed response Roger. Useful to understand, and grateful for the tips on what might be coded, and as you say it may have some value, in a NIME sort of a way, even if it it doesn't get used. Realistically though at least for now I will park the thought and distinguish patches I want to use sustain with, and patches I want to maximize aftertouch with, and spend time practicing

[Roger_Linn]

Makes sense, 5KWIRE. But it's good food for thought. Maybe others have some thoughts on this topic?

[John the Savage]

Perhaps you're overthinking the LinnStrument's exposure in this regard, Roger.

I personally see it as being the player's responsibility to make sure they hit the sustain pedal at the right time, and the synth's job to maintain movement within those held notes, as to avoid monotony. I mean, that's what any good synth patch already does; else indeed, quite literally, it would just sound like an oscillator.

I'm not campaigning for this either way, but I don't see it as being a problem, were it to be implemented.

Cheers!

[Roger_Linn]

I agree, John. I see little need for a violin with a sustain pedal. But it’s fun food for thought.

[John the Savage]

Where it could prove useful is in a sostenuto context, but that could just as easily be a function of the synth engine. Anyway... I'll just be out here playing.

[Roger_Linn]

Well it’s a brave new world out there, as John the Savage would know.

[John the Savage]

Haha... Indeed he would.

[5KW1RE]

Perhaps you're overthinking the LinnStrument's exposure in this regard, Roger.

I personally see it as being the player's responsibility to make sure they hit the sustain pedal at the right time, and the synth's job to maintain movement within those held notes, as to avoid monotony. I mean, that's what any good synth patch already does; else indeed, quite literally, it would just sound like an oscillator.

I'm not campaigning for this either way, but I don't see it as being a problem, were it to be implemented.

Cheers!

That makes sense to me. In which case possibly all the midi processor needs is some rudimentary if statement check as to whether a particular note is sustaining and if it is to then silently do not send aftertouch on its way thru? Maybe

[Roger_Linn]

Try it and see. The reward is in the journey.

[Dirk Diggler]

I'll throw this crazy idea out here. How about trying an app like Gigperformer, they have a very workable way to do reverb tails on patch changes. Seems to me a similar concept could be tried with sustains. Also they do have very powerful scripting capabilities, and of course MPE friendly.

You're right Roger no doubt, it's always a fun adventure to boldly explore.

Happy exploring.

[Tj Shredder]

A sustain pedal that is at the same time an aftertouch source on channel 1? Would this fight the other MPE aftertouch values?
Or have a Midi patch that still would read the MPE aftertouch values, averages them and sends that to the sustained notes? In this case the instrument would not receive a sustain message, but it would still see played notes…
An instrument could deal with this individually…