Modular Multi FX plugin in the works

[pekbro]

IMO, hosting plugins is never worth the cpu overhead. Unless it's just a host for plugins and that's it. YMMV

[Ad0]

https://msh.audio/

https://www.erikssonjonas.com/modularfiasco

https://marionietoworld.com/mnodes/

https://www.phasetape.com/

And I know of one more currently in closed beta.

It's about to be a very crowded market for such a thing!

as if plugins isn't a crowded market in itself would be interesting to see how they handle feedbacks

[morphex]

https://msh.audio/

https://www.erikssonjonas.com/modularfiasco

https://marionietoworld.com/mnodes/

https://www.phasetape.com/

And I know of one more currently in closed beta.

It's about to be a very crowded market for such a thing!

I agree. Although having several options to choose from in a specific category might be a little overwhelming for some folks, I also think that it can foster some good competition in creativity. Let the best ideas and implementation rise to the top. Then the user base can vote for their favorite by using their wallets.

[zerocrossing]

What I'd love to see is something like this with a side chain input that you could use as audio rate modulation to parameters that allow such shenanigans

[Ad0]

What I'd love to see is something like this with a side chain input that you could use as audio rate modulation to parameters that allow such shenanigans

Yes it supports that, I used a synth to modulate a filter inside my graph!
I tested it in Reason yesterday, and I got thor to send a triangle waveform from it's osc to my plugin.
check this out: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0fek7b1c ... ibhmf&dl=0

[billinder33]

https://marionietoworld.com/mnodes/

Not seen this before. Looks cool, Mario makes some really interesting plugins.

[Ad0]

I agree. Although having several options to choose from in a specific category might be a little overwhelming for some folks, I also think that it can foster some good competition in creativity. Let the best ideas and implementation rise to the top. Then the user base can vote for their favorite by using their wallets.

I think the difference here is that those products are generally trying to be a modular studio / plugin host / node-based production environment.
Mine is trying to be a deep, ear-tuned effect algorithm builder where the graph exists to create one coherent custom effect. Trying to keep it focused on that. In any case my plug can be hosted in theirs

[rafa1981]

Does this allow one to put insert FX within the delays feedback path?

The thing is that if you put a plugin in the feedback path it has to process the block first. and some don't like very small block sizes, and different plugins have different quirks. it takes years for a daw to handle all the different plugins reliably, that's why I choose not to do it now. you see the changelogs of misc daws and VST hosts that "Fixed strange behavior caused by plugin X"

A reverb or delay can block process, having feedback doesn't mean that they have to be processed sample-wise. Unless you one is Karplus-Strong delays or reverbs can be limited to have a delay on minimum e.g. 32-64 samples, which is a very reasonable block size and enables block processing of the effect itself. It's often the CPU efficient way to code delays and reverbs.

[Ad0]

A reverb or delay can block process, having feedback doesn't mean that they have to be processed sample-wise. Unless you one is Karplus-Strong delays or reverbs can be limited to have a delay on minimum e.g. 32-64 samples, which is a very reasonable block size and enables block processing of the effect itself. It's often the CPU efficient way to code delays and reverbs.

I do have a reverb and in that instance that works. A self contained reverb module can be block processed from the outside and still behave correctly, because inside the module it usually still runs a per-sample loop.

That's fine because the whole feedback structure lives inside one module!

Problem appears when the user is building the reverb or flanger out of separate modules.
Delay -> Filter -> Mixer -> back to Delay

If this is processed per sample, it works like a real feedback circuit:
sample 0:
Delay processes
Filter processes
Mixer sends feedback back

sample 1:
Delay already sees the updated feedback


That was the whole point of doing per sample processing - to build your own "internal structures" out of reasonable granular building blocks

[whassup]

Audio rate modulations, side chaining, feedback: This is where it get's interesting.

[Ad0]

Audio rate modulations, side chaining, feedback: This is where it get's interesting.

Yes a BIG reason why I made it!

Thor synth in Reason modulating stereo MS20 filters:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0fek7b1c ... ibhmf&dl=0
External reverse delay feedback loop from a Reason device (Reverb)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3intkehz ... vyiln&dl=0

[rafa1981]

I do have a reverb and in that instance that works. A self contained reverb module can be block processed from the outside and still behave correctly, because inside the module it usually still runs a per-sample loop.
...

I mean block processed from the inside.

If the minimum delay is capped at e.g. 32 samples, the feedback comes delayed at least 32 samples, so the feedback of sample 0 affects sample 33 because of the delay. You can take the actual 32 input samples and the 32 samples of feedback just at the beggining and process them in a block/bulk without any of the new samples interfering between each other. You don't need to process the loop itself per-sample.

Of course for this to work you'd have to have a delay module that loads the VST inside the delay module itself. Once you get to the modular graph processing this doesn't work, or at least not out of the box without special handling.

[Ad0]

I mean block processed from the inside.

If the minimum delay is capped at e.g. 32 samples, the feedback comes delayed at least 32 samples, so the feedback of sample 0 affects sample 33 because of the delay. You can take the actual 32 input samples and the 32 samples of feedback just at the beggining and process them in a block/bulk without any of the new samples interfering between each other. You don't need to process the loop itself per-sample.

True! For that exact case... You would need access to that internal information for that specific plugin

Of course for this to work you'd have to have a delay module that loads the VST inside the delay module itself. Once you get to the modular graph processing this doesn't work, or at least not out of the box without special handling.

Yes it gets hairy really quick. And it won't work properly, only in very specific cases and VSTs. That's why I do per sample (KISS) - but after that I will try an experiement with a hybrid design where it processes block or sample based on the topography, because I at least know my own delay times

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Does this allow one to put insert FX within the delays feedback path?

no it doesn't host plugins. I mean it's technically possible but as the first I want it to be rock stable so I can survive the day (it has so far though).

The thing is that if you put a plugin in the feedback path it has to process the block first. and some don't like very small block sizes, and different plugins have different quirks. it takes years for a daw to handle all the different plugins reliably, that's why I choose not to do it now. you see the changelogs of misc daws and VST hosts that "Fixed strange behavior caused by plugin X"

however, it is multi in and out if you configure it to be, so you can route the plugin into the audio ins and outs of my plugin and get it in the feedback path there. I will try this myself, I have done it before in other plugins!

Video:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yxh2g4vh ... nmsun&dl=0

Like this

We had a miscommunication. I wasn't suggesting hosting third-party plugins. I've got Blue Cat stuff for that.

I was trying to ask, are feedback paths on delay modules (whatever you want to call the blocks) exposed so users can process the feedback with other FX modules. Can I put a pitch shifter or a reverb in the delay feedback path for example?

All entirely within your environment. No third party anything.

[Ad0]

We had a miscommunication. I wasn't suggesting hosting third-party plugins. I've got Blue Cat stuff for that.

I was trying to ask, are feedback paths on delay modules (whatever you want to call the blocks) exposed so users can process the feedback with other FX modules. Can I put a pitch shifter or a reverb in the delay feedback path for example?

All entirely within your environment. No third party anything.

Yes that's why I created it because I want to design my own kind of delays (replicated ohmboyz with LFO filter in the feedback loop etc)
example: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ln41yrd8 ... rqn74&dl=0