What are YOUR biggest challenges in music theory and songwriting? (preperation for a music course)

[Starbright]

Hello everybody,
as of lately I'm working on a music theory course for beginners and intermediates.
And since it has been ages since I started out (I studied Jazz and Pop in Frankfurt), I'm not really in the mindset of a beginner anymore.
So my questions would be:
- What are your goals, that made you want to learn music theory?
- What is your biggest challenge regarding music theory?
- If you allready have some prior knowledge regarding music theory, what are the things you'd love to do next?
- Also, if you have/had problems learning music theory what made it harder/more difficult to learn for you?

I'd really aprecciate any feedback or questions on your side (even though it may take some time until I respond).
Please refrain from bashing other people under this post, as we all had to start out once and probably didn't knew sh*t.
Also if you have any ideas on how to teach certain subjects of music theory feel free to share them.
I may not be a newbie in teaching music theory (normaly I do 1 on 1 lessons), but different perspectives are always useful.

Thanks, Starbright

[Zeisner]

That's a good question, I have to think about it. I've been composing and playing just by ear for decades and only got recently into music theory, primarily to learn the names of all those elements and functions.

[jancivil]

- What are your goals, that made you want to learn music theory?

I knew a fair few things from around, for a band I was in I did most of the arrangements so I'd written parts, I knew jazz theory but I knew I needed more because I wanted to get how JS Bach counterpoint was constructed; I gravitated to that from the fact there was a fugue by Keith Emerson on an ELP album, something else I wasn't able to suss by ear, taking it off the record.
Now, classical music was not present in our house growing up so what it was made of was not super-intuitive. In order to get into school at all I had to become a classical player, and most of it is fairly obvious once you grasp 'dominant-tonic paradigm'. The hard-core polyphony is another matter.

- What is your biggest challenge regarding music theory?

Today I'm engrossed in analyses of Frank Zappa's use of what he called his Chord Bible, and objects he called Densities, sonorities of 7 to 12 note scales voiced vertically; the challenge is there are quite a few, the permutations can go on forever and it takes time and a lot of staring at notation to grok where pieces like Sinister Footwear II are specifically spurred by these. It's been decades since I looked at this much in notation. But clearly he was immersed in it and wrote 'naturally'. I mean the constructions were devised for a reason and ultimately were conducive to a sound world.
Before seeing these things I'd wonder 'how in the world do you come up with that'.

I took to what was called music theory at community college & at conservatory readily and naturally; in both cases it was primarily 4 part writing by the principles that govern classical music, before there were major deviations mid and late 19th c.
At community college that was 100% of it.
Chromatic harmony gets to be a challenge in itself ie., there get to be real head-scratchers and we were expected to get it done and it be good writing. If you want an A grade it'd be great writing. It was one thing that came easily to me though, somehow. I came to prefer to note 'what happens', ie., intuit from listening over applying the terms described. The whole thing was really is your writing worthy anyway (beyond it had to be correct 'within the rules'). Some people think having that level of restrictions restricts your creativity, it didn't for me, I regret none of it.

After abandoning school I tried to delve deeply into analyses of Webern in the library, highly intellectualized stuff I didn't get very far with. At CCM I took an elective course in dodecaphonic serialism but it was going to be getting graded on the quality of our rows, I dropped it. I spent enough time with it anyway (not just this one class) to be able to improvise '12 tones before repeating one' (with style); after a point I don't think anybody is hearing how good or not your rows are, frankly.

I have no insight into teaching it, I can show how a procedure is done, but designing a program for someone else might be a challenge I'm not built well for.

(the vast majority of what I do doesn't involve a lot of thinking. Over time and deeper immersion finally you internalize knowledge and forget it. Even when I do construct something I'm not going to comply with the 'theory' directly, it's what does your ear tell you to do.)

[Zeisner]

Technically I've been using it before I knew it's name, but counterpoint seems to be something a lot of people struggle with.

[jancivil]

When I was in school, I avoided it because free counterpoint had the prerequisite of Species counterpoint, I was familiar and no. The part-writing principles in "music theory" (derived straight trom JS Bach) had well sussed the principles from Fux and advanced them considerably. I wasn't identifying myself as a composer at the time but I had written tons of counterpoint just writing parts. If I have one strength it's counterpoint, it's my path to arriving at harmonies. Honors curriculae took the normal two years in one year. second year I had nowhere to go but Species. I pressed for something to do and they came up with a course "Form and Analysis" only there was no class, it was write a paper. and for me it was fake it til you make it, I didn't do high school. They said I didn't write enough, A minus.

[jancivil]

So it could be people coping with Fux Gradus ad Parnassum and hating it. I can't be the only one.

[Starbright]

- What are your goals, that made you want to learn music theory?

I knew a fair few things from around, for a band I was in I did most of the arrangements so I'd written parts, I knew jazz theory but I knew I needed more because I wanted to get how JS Bach counterpoint was constructed; I gravitated to that from the fact there was a fugue by Keith Emerson on an ELP album, something else I wasn't able to suss by ear, taking it off the record.
Now, classical music was not present in our house growing up so what it was made of was not super-intuitive. In order to get into school at all I had to become a classical player, and most of it is fairly obvious once you grasp 'dominant-tonic paradigm'. The hard-core polyphony is another matter.

- What is your biggest challenge regarding music theory?

Today I'm engrossed in analyses of Frank Zappa's use of what he called his Chord Bible, and objects he called Densities, sonorities of 7 to 12 note scales voiced vertically; the challenge is there are quite a few, the permutations can go on forever and it takes time and a lot of staring at notation to grok where pieces like Sinister Footwear II are specifically spurred by these. It's been decades since I looked at this much in notation. But clearly he was immersed in it and wrote 'naturally'. I mean the constructions were devised for a reason and ultimately were conducive to a sound world.
Before seeing these things I'd wonder 'how in the world do you come up with that'.

I took to what was called music theory at community college & at conservatory readily and naturally; in both cases it was primarily 4 part writing by the principles that govern classical music, before there were major deviations mid and late 19th c.
At community college that was 100% of it.
Chromatic harmony gets to be a challenge in itself ie., there get to be real head-scratchers and we were expected to get it done and it be good writing. If you want an A grade it'd be great writing. It was one thing that came easily to me though, somehow. I came to prefer to note 'what happens', ie., intuit from listening over applying the terms described. The whole thing was really is your writing worthy anyway (beyond it had to be correct 'within the rules'). Some people think having that level of restrictions restricts your creativity, it didn't for me, I regret none of it.

After abandoning school I tried to delve deeply into analyses of Webern in the library, highly intellectualized stuff I didn't get very far with. At CCM I took an elective course in dodecaphonic serialism but it was going to be getting graded on the quality of our rows, I dropped it. I spent enough time with it anyway (not just this one class) to be able to improvise '12 tones before repeating one' (with style); after a point I don't think anybody is hearing how good or not your rows are, frankly.

I have no insight into teaching it, I can show how a procedure is done, but designing a program for someone else might be a challenge I'm not built well for.

(the vast majority of what I do doesn't involve a lot of thinking. Over time and deeper immersion finally you internalize knowledge and forget it. Even when I do construct something I'm not going to comply with the 'theory' directly, it's what does your ear tell you to do.)

That's great.I actually got to know/"learn" counterpoint when I was in school, but only really got to learn it when I had to use it as a songwriting tool for homework we got a signed to do (there were some funny ones like using 3 polymeters, start a song as busy and possible and subtract to one note in the end, write your composition backwards....).
One prof explained the reason for counterpoint (at least on the most basic level) very intuitive for us by letting us sing a chord change and give each voice the instruction to make the singing our notes "less boring" every 4 bars.

When it comes to Frank Zappa, I have to say that I admire him from the distance (we had a prof that wrote his thesis on Frank Zappa and still has a tribute band with his keyboarder). Unluckily we had had to transcribe 2 of his songs (one was Wet T-Shirt Night). Since those days I decided to admire him from the distance and enjoy his music as a listener (also because my own music is going in a different direction - right now I'm mixing rock, pop trap and jazz).

It's great to know someone having fun with the analysis of his music.
If you'd like I'd come back to you, regarding Zappa and Webern.

[DCrown]

I learned scales, theory and all that stuff, you need some basics, my roots are the blues and I do like a lot of different genres, from Funk to Flamenco to Jazz to Classical music.
After all these studies and experiences the most important skills are improvisation skills.
Improvisation makes me find a new melody, chord progression, song idea.
Improvisation imo is one of the most important things. You need to be able to play at least one instrument, of course.
Remember, Bach, Mozart, Chopin, Liszt etc were all masters of improvisation!

[Starbright]

Theory.png

Ok, after some time I restructered everything and started working on a chord map (still in the works), which I will function interactively on webpage/webapp. I'm still considering to also put the realtions to the relative minor in there or if it should be a seperate sheet. What do you think?