Moving from FL Studio -> Bitwig 6 - Any reason to maybe consider Ableton?

[Caine123]

hey guys, so I have started it seriously this time, I dont use Bitwig primarily and still open up FL Studio first but I am learning nearly every day about 30 minutes - 60 Minutes Bitwig 6 and am also making my own Manual for an FL Studio user, how to do this and that in Bitwig instead of FL Studio.
So far it seems to be a nice move, still some things I am unsure if i like them at all and if i will enjoy Bitwig the same or more than FL Studio or get back fully and dont enjoy Bitwig, time will tell.

anyways i will renew my Bitwig 4 license very soon i guess, still have my demo license for 6 and got a new upgrade plan bought in the background. i also got Ableton 11 very cheap in the past and i guess learning Bitwig I shouldnt have too much trouble understanding Ableton maybe if i want to, still are there any points i should know where you say, consider this and that before moving to Bitwig fully and check this out in Ableton? things Bitwig doesnt do well, doesnt have etc. i should really check out (yeah Max For Live for example).

thx

[Rastkovic]

i also got Ableton 11 very cheap in the past and i guess learning Bitwig I shouldnt have too much trouble understanding Ableton maybe if i want to, still are there any points i should know where you say, consider this and that before moving to Bitwig fully and check this out in Ableton? things Bitwig doesnt do well, doesnt have etc. i should really check out (yeah Max For Live for example).

thx

Ableton Live is becoming - in my opinion - more and more a DAW for "everybody", while the innovation is happening in Bitwig Studio. Bitwig is still far from perfect, but it is on a very good way.

I had been using Live from version 8 to 12 and switched completely to Bitwig after the release of version 6. Before that, I had a single upgrade plan period from version 4.9 to 5.2.

[Trancit]

I have now pulled the plug at FL Studio (don´t know if have followed the corresponding thread at Looptalk) and for me the situation is actually the same like yours... I am a bit undecided between Live and Bitwig...

For me what does Live better:
- Development is more concentrated on the DAW and workflow while in Bitwig the main aspect is sounddesign, devices and experimental stuff... V6 was an welcome exception but I think it will stay an exception...
- Max for Live is for me far more interesting than the Grid... I am not so the "modular guy" loving to tweak everything to the extreme...
I like ready made devices instead of building my own and the pure variety of what is available for Max blows imho Bitwig´s options 10 times out of the water
- Live´s browser I consider as well far better than Bitwig´s... it´s clearer, more powerful and offers simple things like retriggering the preview of audio files via the right arrow key... exactly the behaviour of FLS´browser
- Live has for me the far better devices... not necessarily more powerful but more thought through, more finetuned, directly useable while in many parts in Bitwig you have first to make them useable by combining multiple devices... that´s not so my cup of tea...
- simple stuff like track presets or alone the variety of packs available with Suite...
What Bitwig offers is absolutely not my taste... i always have the impression this contains all out of chaotic and unharmonic melodies and beeps and blobs...
I mean a look at Dave´s videos from Bitwig shows clearly what kind of music taste he personally has and my feelings about the Bitwig library is about sounding the same...
- the latest updates have brought Live onto a whole new level... the options like Midi Tools, randomizing,etc...in the PR Editor, now the implementation of scripts like being able to run PaulXstretch directly on a chosen audio clip and many more improvements concentrating on production workflow are imho incredible...
Bitwig 6 wasn´t a bad update but compared to what brought Live´s V12 circle it´s perhaps 10% of (for me) useable features...and now the Bitwig´s are going back to their device developement what 6.1 shows...
- Live is much older and is for me the clear more "mature" DAW... alone the size of the user base is David against Goliath and can be a big factor in terms of collaborations...
- because of the previous point the offer of 3rd party stuff for Live
+ Racks
+ M4L
+ Presets/templates
+ tutorials
is far out of reach for Bitwig and I don´t think this will change a lot in near future...
Compared to Live Bitwig is and will stay a complete niche DAW existing in the shadow of Live...
I always wondered actually how little Live users did the move to Bitwig but nowadays having a deeper insight in the workflow and behaviour of both I know very well why...
- Macro knobs in Live... I think Bitwig did a huge mistake by shifting really everything over to the Modulation part which simply do not have the simplicity and the options Live´s macro knob system offers with snapshots, randomizing...etc...
- being able to save midi files for seperate clips not just for the whole arrangement
- being able to save tracks and groups not just clips or group clips
- too much to list... the previous points just came directly to my mind based on my own thoughts...

What does Bitwig better for me:
- the whole technical part...
+ working PDC
+ internal presets as well for 3rd party plugins without having to wrap them into a Rack
+ stability through plugin sandboxing
+ better HighRes compatibility
+ updating the app in terms of speed and remaining parts left on your harddrive
+ complete disable/unload of plugins
- of course the modulation part in general is more elegant while I find myself not using it to an extend it would make any difference to using M4L
- Hybrid tracks
- multiple instruments on the same track for not having to use a seperate track for Midi VSTi...
While in practice I often record the outcome of the Midi FX anyway on a seperate track which doesn´t make this feature much more useful than in Live
- very nice Midi FX with superb integration
- stuff like nested devices, devices in feedback paths, different types of Racks with M/S split, spectral, multiband... better solved than in Live
- much better integration of the whole "Random" topic... more devices for random, random on automation etc...
- custom keyboard shortcuts are nice but often enough exactly what I need is not available or doesn´t work the way I expect...
- again too much to list everything...

In general... while there are of course many overlaps... for me personally Live is actually still the better "Production" DAW while again for me Bitwig even while doing some "production" stuff better, has it´s focus more on sound mangling/sound design/doing weird things...

For example, even after 6.1 I still like Simpler much better... it gives me everything I need ready to go and doesn´t force me to connect the necessary modulations to make use of the more open options in Bitwigs new sampler... I mostly don´t need this "extra" stuff
This is a scheme which runs through the whole workflow or even programm for me...
In Live I just use what is there...ready to rock...
In Bitwig I always have the feeling I first have to make the devices and workflow in general suiting to what I want/need with large and a lot of mouse movements between the different sections of Bitwig (Arranger/Device Panel/Editors) and the inspector... I always have to go back and forth... doing a bit here... having to go to the inspector for more details...doing again a bit there... having to go to the inspector...
And because the Inspector is content sensitive this "there and back" is often just to select now something else to do the next steps... having to click in between something else, having to click back on the previous part... this drives me nuts...

My current state is actually 60-40 in favour of Live... but I am still not sure... just alone for the fact that Live would be for me some extra costs (having started with rent-to-own) and that Bitwig stays until now completely away from AI stuff while this is slowly creeping into Live more and more...

I am not sure if that helps you though...

[Caine123]

I have now pulled the plug at FL Studio (don´t know if have followed the corresponding thread at Looptalk) and for me the situation is actually the same like yours... I am a bit undecided between Live and Bitwig...

For me what does Live better:
- Development is more concentrated on the DAW and workflow while in Bitwig the main aspect is sounddesign, devices and experimental stuff... V6 was an welcome exception but I think it will stay an exception...
- Max for Live is for me far more interesting than the Grid... I am not so the "modular guy" loving to tweak everything to the extreme...
I like ready made devices instead of building my own and the pure variety of what is available for Max blows imho Bitwig´s options 10 times out of the water
- Live´s browser I consider as well far better than Bitwig´s... it´s clearer, more powerful and offers simple things like retriggering the preview of audio files via the right arrow key... exactly the behaviour of FLS´browser
- Live has for me the far better devices... not necessarily more powerful but more thought through, more finetuned, directly useable while in many parts in Bitwig you have first to make them useable by combining multiple devices... that´s not so my cup of tea...
- simple stuff like track presets or alone the variety of packs available with Suite...
What Bitwig offers is absolutely not my taste... i always have the impression this contains all out of chaotic and unharmonic melodies and beeps and blobs...
I mean a look at Dave´s videos from Bitwig shows clearly what kind of music taste he personally has and my feelings about the Bitwig library is about sounding the same...
- the latest updates have brought Live onto a whole new level... the options like Midi Tools, randomizing,etc...in the PR Editor, now the implementation of scripts like being able to run PaulXstretch directly on a chosen audio clip and many more improvements concentrating on production workflow are imho incredible...
Bitwig 6 wasn´t a bad update but compared to what brought Live´s V12 circle it´s perhaps 10% of (for me) useable features...and now the Bitwig´s are going back to their device developement what 6.1 shows...
- Live is much older and is for me the clear more "mature" DAW... alone the size of the user base is David against Goliath and can be a big factor in terms of collaborations...
- because of the previous point the offer of 3rd party stuff for Live
+ Racks
+ M4L
+ Presets/templates
+ tutorials
is far out of reach for Bitwig and I don´t think this will change a lot in near future...
Compared to Live Bitwig is and will stay a complete niche DAW existing in the shadow of Live...
I always wondered actually how little Live users did the move to Bitwig but nowadays having a deeper insight in the workflow and behaviour of both I know very well why...
- Macro knobs in Live... I think Bitwig did a huge mistake by shifting really everything over to the Modulation part which simply do not have the simplicity and the options Live´s macro knob system offers with snapshots, randomizing...etc...
- being able to save midi files for seperate clips not just for the whole arrangement
- being able to save tracks and groups not just clips or group clips
- too much to list... the previous points just came directly to my mind based on my own thoughts...

What does Bitwig better for me:
- the whole technical part...
+ working PDC
+ internal presets as well for 3rd party plugins without having to wrap them into a Rack
+ stability through plugin sandboxing
+ better HighRes compatibility
+ updating the app in terms of speed and remaining parts left on your harddrive
+ complete disable/unload of plugins
- of course the modulation part in general is more elegant while I find myself not using it to an extend it would make any difference to using M4L
- Hybrid tracks
- multiple instruments on the same track for not having to use a seperate track for Midi VSTi...
While in practice I often record the outcome of the Midi FX anyway on a seperate track which doesn´t make this feature much more useful than in Live
- very nice Midi FX with superb integration
- stuff like nested devices, devices in feedback paths, different types of Racks with M/S split, spectral, multiband... better solved than in Live
- much better integration of the whole "Random" topic... more devices for random, random on automation etc...
- custom keyboard shortcuts are nice but often enough exactly what I need is not available or doesn´t work the way I expect...
- again too much to list everything...

In general... while there are of course many overlaps... for me personally Live is actually still the better "Production" DAW while again for me Bitwig even while doing some "production" stuff better, has it´s focus more on sound mangling/sound design/doing weird things...

For example, even after 6.1 I still like Simpler much better... it gives me everything I need ready to go and doesn´t force me to connect the necessary modulations to make use of the more open options in Bitwigs new sampler... I mostly don´t need this "extra" stuff
This is a scheme which runs through the whole workflow or even programm for me...
In Live I just use what is there...ready to rock...
In Bitwig I always have the feeling I first have to make the devices and workflow in general suiting to what I want/need with large and a lot of mouse movements between the different sections of Bitwig (Arranger/Device Panel/Editors) and the inspector... I always have to go back and forth... doing a bit here... having to go to the inspector for more details...doing again a bit there... having to go to the inspector...
And because the Inspector is content sensitive this "there and back" is often just to select now something else to do the next steps... having to click in between something else, having to click back on the previous part... this drives me nuts...

My current state is actually 60-40 in favour of Live... but I am still not sure... just alone for the fact that Live would be for me some extra costs (having started with rent-to-own) and that Bitwig stays until now completely away from AI stuff while this is slowly creeping into Live more and more...

I am not sure if that helps you though...

thanks, i will read the post later with silence , i dont know many things you wrote myself for Bitwig and Ableton so i need to check these.

you can check this topic where i compare various points from FL Studio with Bitwig, might help you too, I also got Ableton 11 since a long time as Suite as it was a great offer but i always HATE the GUI, maybe just a thing to get into, and once it clicks it is definitely a great DAW im sure. i might also compare Ableton with FL Studio and see which workflow i like more compared to Bitwig. M4L is still one of the biggest things i still might not wanna miss out, other than taht i dont even use all the plugins i bought .

https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?t=341276

let me know by chance what you think of my list, maybe it inspires you

i just read your post about pulling the plug, this is also one of the issues i got with FL Studio, im still on FL Studio 24 and didnt upgrade, i just have no time anymore for more bug testing and half baked updates and now with AI bloatware so i wanna start new projects with a new DAW (maybe).
guess the kids love AI nowadays and FL Studio is more and more developing to tiktok DAW maybe, hopefully not all DAWs will follow. i will miss Loopstarter lol

[jtsterays]

Saw both of you & Caine in Looptalk. Personally, Bitwig has everything I need feature wise & better technical stuff (e.g PDC, plugin disable, better multi out workflow). At first, that was the one I'm about to choose. But now time has passed, I think I gotta give it to Ableton, it's just a better all around DAW.
Everything is more streamlined, I feel like I want to make actual songs with it rather than tinkering around and ends up with bleeps and bloops like eurorack which is what Bitwig is. Doesnt help that all of the music I hear on YT made with Bitwig sound boring & soulless.

Ableton also has better stock plugins, they feel like & rival 3rd party VSTs. And I love that they all use the same GUI style, very cohesive and easier to learn them. Better UI and browser too imo.

That said, I'll be sticking to FL, the huge time investment is not worth it. I dont mind the AI stuff, yet. I'm still optimistic that the rewrites will be worth the wait.

[Trancit]

thanks, i will read the post later with silence , i dont know many things you wrote myself for Bitwig and Ableton so i need to check these.

you can check this topic where i compare various points from FL Studio with Bitwig, might help you too, I also got Ableton 11 since a long time as Suite as it was a great offer but i always HATE the GUI, maybe just a thing to get into, and once it clicks it is definitely a great DAW im sure. i might also compare Ableton with FL Studio and see which workflow i like more compared to Bitwig. M4L is still one of the biggest things i still might not wanna miss out, other than taht i dont even use all the plugins i bought .

https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?t=341276

let me know by chance what you think of my list, maybe it inspires you

i just read your post about pulling the plug, this is also one of the issues i got with FL Studio, im still on FL Studio 24 and didnt upgrade, i just have no time anymore for more bug testing and half baked updates and now with AI bloatware so i wanna start new projects with a new DAW (maybe).
guess the kids love AI nowadays and FL Studio is more and more developing to tiktok DAW maybe, hopefully not all DAWs will follow. i will miss Loopstarter lol

I read your post on Looptalk already, wanted to respond their but left it for the moment...

One thing though I remember having noticed when reading your post on Looptalk and here in the Bitwig forum...
I don´t know if it helps yourself to compare every aspect and workflow with FLS when looking for a new DAW...
Perhaps it just seems to be because of the questions and what you are saying but coming from FL Studio maybe as the first and only DAW, I think it´s better not to compare too much but try out the "other" way those are meant to work...

FL Studio has a very special way of doing things and you shouldn´t care about these when trying things in Bitwig or Live... they have their very own way of doing things which imho often are the better way but might cause confusion when wanting to do the same way in Bitwig like you are used to from FL Studio...

For me it´s easy as I always was used to "linear" DAWs and mostly didn´t like the FLS "freedom" ... I don´t know your background...

One thing I missed to say in my comparrison before about a feature I like very very much in Ableton and absolutely not in Bitwig which could be important for you depending on your workflow:

Both of them don´t support the mousewheel on parameters but while you have in Bitwig just the option to click and drag, respectively to CTRL click and enter a value I really really love the fact that every parameter you click on in Live is kind of "selected" allowing direct numerical input without modifier and enter and foremost that you can use the arrow keys to move the knobs in logical values!
I.e. with a parameter which has a db scale:
- up and down arrows for increasing/decreasing by 1db
- left and right arrows for increasing decreasing by 0.1db

This is imho a really great feature which I use constantly when working with native devices and gives me the feeling of absolute control even when working faster...
Actually mouse click+drag I only use for broader ranges where I don´t expect too much precision... but the arrow keys... all the time!

[Trancit]

...

That said, I'll be sticking to FL, the huge time investment is not worth it. I dont mind the AI stuff, yet. I'm still optimistic that the rewrites will be worth the wait.

I wish you good luck... I hope you havent overlooked the (for me) most important aspect of their implementation: https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?t=341065
where I am giving Scott my worst case scenario which I think no one can rule out with absolute certainty:
https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p2065211

[SLiC]

I have FL, BW and Live. Live is the one I used most often. I never really clicked with FL (would have sold it if I could!) but have a soft spot for Bitwig, they started very strong but in my opinion have really tapered off over the last few years (since they introduced the upgrade plan) where as Live have been pushing new and interesting (and free) stuff out almost continuously with open betas for all. It's defiantly a very good time to be a Live user and the new extensions open up a whole new world of options (the are already extensions for ghost clips, midi like editing of audio and in clip editing to name a few. If I had to have just one DAW it would be Live- it's still owner led and 500+ employees and very large user base (so loads of packs/tutorials and books etc) It also has an amazing hardware ecosystem and I think a lot more to come....

[jtsterays]

...

That said, I'll be sticking to FL, the huge time investment is not worth it. I dont mind the AI stuff, yet. I'm still optimistic that the rewrites will be worth the wait.

I wish you good luck... I hope you havent overlooked the (for me) most important aspect of their implementation: https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?t=341065
where I am giving Scott my worst case scenario which I think no one can rule out with absolute certainty:
https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p2065211

I'm aware of that thread, in fact I'm reading it right now. We'll see how it goes.

[Caine123]

ok I'm just getting through your list Trancit and i dunno much about Abletons' workflow yet, somehow I hate its look and music is music and if the tool is powerful it shouldnt matter but ahhh I will spend more time with Ableton too now, I'm at the VERY BEGINNING of Bitwig but I can already make a BEAT in there, I learned some basics now, the workflow with holding a key is not so bad and maybe grows on me, i could lay down quickly (ok the browser is not so great so far...) my thoughts and wow I added some fine modulation in Bitwig for some sounds and leads giving them a nonstatic feel with the Cutoff etc. (things I can do in Serum itself, but e.g. in Diva etc. it kinda sucks). so I think I will try to learn the Basics to make a beat in Ableton now too to just get a feel.

Bitwig just looks much much more appealing and inspiring, sounds strange but somehow I need something to work with which doesnt strain my eyes, like Excelsheets, cannot look at them too long, i can look at FL Studio for hours .

for real, let's check Ableton definitely, got my Ableton 11 Suite here installed.

-Development, cannot comment as I dunno the history of its delevopment but it sounds really good what you wrote, though it seems Bitwig improved it for Bitwig 6, let's see, i dont buy on promises anymore (IL cough cough cough) and get older and wait for nothing so Ableton wins i guess for its actual state offering so much more?

- Max 4 Live, i think I got some devices in my account, need to test and check, i saw some recommended devices on youtube, just mindblowing..... clear BIG BIG PLUS!!!!

- needa check the browser of Ableton, I didnt like it much at first look but i didnt spend much time at all

- maybe it is the downside of FL Studio, I bought so many 3rd party plugins that I dont use native plugins in FL Studio mostly, I used only FL Limiter for sidechaining, maybe some pan stuff for effects, the rest mostly only 3rd party, so I dont judge Ableton vs Bitwig, subjectively, not a point for me, but definitely appreciate you pointing it out !!!!

- i think track presets etc. good to know, needa check (as I got both I can use some of the stuff like WAV Packs in both of course ) but seems not my priority, again good to know this!

- YES, Midi Tools, this is a big plus and for example the better scale mode, dont care if it is for noobs, it is just great to have and wow, this might really letting me think again.

- tutorials, templates etc. might be a big plus too but not for now for me.

so Trancit, thanks a lot for the insight and some points i didnt know, i will check them further out and will check how much different the workflow is making a beat and mixing etc. somehow it seems Ableton has no classical mixer? view? i will watch some tutorials!!!

oh and you are right, I shouldnt compare FL Studio to the traditional DAWs, but for me i think atm it is easier to understand by comparing specific workflows to understand how they are done in traditional DAWs. like I FINALLY UNDERSTAND why i had to make new instances in Bitwig when wanting to have a melody played at the same time, unlike the pattern workflow! where i didnt had to do it, but then a cool user told me to make Instrument instances and link em to my Serum instance then it works too. first i thought it is cumbersome but not really, in FL Studio i need to create new patterns (also more clicks) and in Bitwig 2-3 clicks as well but here i got the freedom to change in a ROW the melodies INDEFINITELY without having to create multiple patterns just for changing the notes, THIS IS INSANE and such a time saver.
or the mixer and automation overview.... i spend SO MUCH TIME sorting all the f*cking auomations and if i later add more automations i need to reorder them 50 lines up if i did that with an instance which is on top in the channel rack etc. and who knows when the changes will be made, again im used to it for such a long time but man, how much time i might save with another DAW.... let's see.... again FL Studio has its HEAVY strengths, but i dont think i use them myself and again the progression made me also unhappy for a long time. I wont revoke my license or say goodbye, not at all, i have too many projects to abandon it for years but all the new stuff i wanna shift now and move on and just check the news/updates and dont get disappointed anymore but hope that Bitwig with its more expensive updates (definitely expensive) will have a better update cycle. i am willing to pay once 1 or 2 years and update and have more joy with a DAW than having to stick with half baked DAW abilities...

and maybe i will stick to Bitwig now for its stability (if it is true) i have to say FL Studio didnt crash on me since FL24 as much and seems to be kinda really solid for me, but im traumatized by the crashes . and also i wanna see if Bitwig really can handle bigger projects better as well, within the years my projects got more complex and i use more automations, effects etc. and i need to see how freeze/bounce in Bitwig works, yeah i remember i wanted to test it out asap to see if i can bounce to wave and later get back to my original instance in Bitwig, as this is definitely a big plus, or being able to pitch a sample in a REAL sampler and not the laughable sampler in FL Studio, the last update for it is just a joke, a fact, i dont wanna say they intend to be careless to their users but i would be ASHAMED to release such an update after such a long time.

this is something i wrote on their forums as well so no different phrasing here.

ok im throw up Bitwig and check the bounce/freeze function, if there is any at all.
then im going to start a short Ableton session!

[Caine123]

@Trancit now I fired up also Ableton ahhhh, thanks hahahah I updated my IL Forum post, I will spend more time this week, the Mixer is so far first impressions clunky compared to Bitwig and the Automation seems also more fiddly than Bitwig, just my VERY VERY early impressions so far. so both points i guess go to Bitwig for me atm.