AI disqualifies anyone as a musician! It's like playback.

[Hipster Bales]

Probably because of a snowflake grass

Looks like someone snitched. I don't know who though.

[Seafire Mk2]

Of course not

[TechHaus]

#FREEBONES

[ghettosynth]

Suno gets a lot of money from it's userbase while 99.9% of the userbase ends up with paying more than they get in return as a Suno user.

So? I just want to push back on this because you seem to be overstating this just a bit. I have paid more for some plugins that I have barely used than I did for one year of Suno. I think that you have to quantify fairly what people are getting out of it. My year of Suno cost about the same as two pizzas on a black friday sale. That's about where I value it. I think we might have ordered pizza the same night, but, for fun, we'll assume that I did. The pizzas would have been fine. I enjoyed them, but honestly, not as much fun as I've had trolling you lot with a few gems. As far as return, I've used it in ways that gave value to someone else in a work context and that netted appreciation that accrues to my reputation, not money. It strikes me that your math might be focused on a commercial take on music. You see it like a professional subscription that needs to justify itself. I don't think even people who are using it in that way take the same view. They think that it's an investment into their "music career", much like most of KVR does with their plugin and music distributor costs.

I think that more than a few users see it as I do and the return is measured differently. It's entertainment, not vocation.

[TechHaus]

Do any of those suno videos you posted have any views?

[enroe]

I am amazed and delighted that this thread is so popular — and is
attracting so much attention.

Bones
-----------------------------
Bones has a very choleric temperament, to which he gives free
rein in his posts, thereby shredding the central thread of many
discussions. Deciding whether or not to suspend him is, ultimately,
a highly subjective matter.

Theme
-----------------------------
But back to the topic: This thread is not about individual AIs (Suno,
Udio, Boomy, Riffusion, Bandlab, ...) and exactly how their stock
prices might perform.

This thread deals generally with the ethical significance of using AI
to create new content in music (and art).

In doing so, we have to exclude those who "re-enact" — that is,
musicians who play covers or interpret other people's songs, or
actors who perform plays written by others. After all, they are
"performing artists."

But for "creative artists," the situation is quite different. Their
genuine activity is precisely the recreation of songs — or the
new creation of images, texts, sculptures, or installations.

When these "musicians" or "artists" leave the creative process
itself — wholly or even just partially — to AI, they are abandoning their
own identity. For they are delegating the most important and most
human aspect of all to the machine, to AI!

If you, as a musician, don't create the notes, the melody, or the riff
yourself, what role do you still play? You could promptly say, "I want
to hear a danceable song with synth bass now." The AI ​​will then do
it in seconds. Similarly, you could put in a CD of a bass-synth band.
That happens just as quickly, and the song isn't created by you either.
With AI, you're making a pact with the devil, because the AI ​​is doing
the most important thing for you. For as a "creative musician," you
have completely bowed out.

It is exactly the same in the visual arts: the essence of art — much
like composing music — is the personal, human act of creation, with
all its emotions, doubts, and attempts. Leaving this to an AI amounts
to a total surrender of the genuinely human element within yourself.

[D-Fusion]

Suno gets a lot of money from it's userbase while 99.9% of the userbase ends up with paying more than they get in return as a Suno user.

So? I just want to push back on this because you seem to be overstating this just a bit. I have paid more for some plugins that I have barely used than I did for one year of Suno. I think that you have to quantify fairly what people are getting out of it. My year of Suno cost about the same as two pizzas on a black friday sale. That's about where I value it. I think we might have ordered pizza the same night, but, for fun, we'll assume that I did. The pizzas would have been fine. I enjoyed them, but honestly, not as much fun as I've had trolling you lot with a few gems. As far as return, I've used it in ways that gave value to someone else in a work context and that netted appreciation that accrues to my reputation, not money. It strikes me that your math might be focused on a commercial take on music. You see it like a professional subscription that needs to justify itself. I don't think even people who are using it in that way take the same view. They think that it's an investment into their "music career", much like most of KVR does with their plugin and music distributor costs.

I think that more than a few users see it as I do and the return is measured differently. It's entertainment, not vocation.

The post i made was made as a reply to the discussion i had with Bones where he constantly tried to find something to attack me with via quotes just because i called him out for miss quoting me in one of his posts so then he started to find some other post i made and went in attack mode on that one instead and it was on his last attack post i replied with the post you quoted.

Seems like some people have a problem with following a whole thread and read the room before posting these days.

[ghettosynth]

Suno gets a lot of money from it's userbase while 99.9% of the userbase ends up with paying more than they get in return as a Suno user.

So? I just want to push back on this because you seem to be overstating this just a bit. I have paid more for some plugins that I have barely used than I did for one year of Suno. I think that you have to quantify fairly what people are getting out of it. My year of Suno cost about the same as two pizzas on a black friday sale. That's about where I value it. I think we might have ordered pizza the same night, but, for fun, we'll assume that I did. The pizzas would have been fine. I enjoyed them, but honestly, not as much fun as I've had trolling you lot with a few gems. As far as return, I've used it in ways that gave value to someone else in a work context and that netted appreciation that accrues to my reputation, not money. It strikes me that your math might be focused on a commercial take on music. You see it like a professional subscription that needs to justify itself. I don't think even people who are using it in that way take the same view. They think that it's an investment into their "music career", much like most of KVR does with their plugin and music distributor costs.

I think that more than a few users see it as I do and the return is measured differently. It's entertainment, not vocation.

The post i made was made as a reply to the discussion i had with Bones where he constantly tried to find something to attack me with via quotes just because i called him out for miss quoting me in one of his posts so then he started to find some other post i made and went in attack mode on that one instead and it was on his last attack post i replied with the post you quoted.

Seems like some people have a problem with following a whole thread and read the room before posting these days.

I understand that, but it doesn't change my challenge to the premise in general. I don't think that you're right about what users get out of Suno. This has nothing to do with who is misquoting who, and doesn't need me to read the entire conversation to contribute to the discussion.

I don't have a problem following a thread, but, I don't need to follow the entire thread to address a point. If it's out of context, then state the context. I'm not "attacking" anyone, I'm just trying to have a conversation that is in that balanced lane between AI is destroying the word and AI is going to bring us utopia.

At any rate, I think that KVR is largely wrong about Suno and the like. That business model has been around for decades, Suno is the Baldwin Fun Machine on steroids and it doesn't really matter what musicians think about it, people do get joy from using it to convert an idea into a finished track. I think that the mistake here is projecting your use cases onto the consumers engaging with the product.

Whether or not it survives long term is a function of a number of pressures, and I'm not predicting that it, specifically will, but the idea that technology can simplify music creation will continue to be a viable business in some form.

[D-Fusion]

Suno gets a lot of money from it's userbase while 99.9% of the userbase ends up with paying more than they get in return as a Suno user.

So? I just want to push back on this because you seem to be overstating this just a bit. I have paid more for some plugins that I have barely used than I did for one year of Suno. I think that you have to quantify fairly what people are getting out of it. My year of Suno cost about the same as two pizzas on a black friday sale. That's about where I value it. I think we might have ordered pizza the same night, but, for fun, we'll assume that I did. The pizzas would have been fine. I enjoyed them, but honestly, not as much fun as I've had trolling you lot with a few gems. As far as return, I've used it in ways that gave value to someone else in a work context and that netted appreciation that accrues to my reputation, not money. It strikes me that your math might be focused on a commercial take on music. You see it like a professional subscription that needs to justify itself. I don't think even people who are using it in that way take the same view. They think that it's an investment into their "music career", much like most of KVR does with their plugin and music distributor costs.

I think that more than a few users see it as I do and the return is measured differently. It's entertainment, not vocation.

The post i made was made as a reply to the discussion i had with Bones where he constantly tried to find something to attack me with via quotes just because i called him out for miss quoting me in one of his posts so then he started to find some other post i made and went in attack mode on that one instead and it was on his last attack post i replied with the post you quoted.

Seems like some people have a problem with following a whole thread and read the room before posting these days.

I understand that, but it doesn't change my challenge to the premise in general. I don't think that you're right about what users get out of Suno. This has nothing to do with who is misquoting who, and doesn't need me to read the entire conversation to contribute to the discussion.

I don't have a problem following a thread, but, I don't need to follow the entire thread to address a point. If it's out of context, then state the context. I'm not "attacking" anyone, I'm just trying to have a conversation that is in that balanced lane between AI is destroying the word and AI is going to bring us utopia.

At any rate, I think that KVR is largely wrong about Suno and the like. That business model has been around for decades, Suno is the Baldwin Fun Machine on steroids and it doesn't really matter what musicians think about it, people do get joy from using it to convert an idea into a finished track. I think that the mistake here is projecting your use cases onto the consumers engaging with the product.

Whether or not it survives long term is a function of a number of pressures, and I'm not predicting that it, specifically will, but the idea that technology can simplify music creation will continue to be a viable business in some form.

I don't have anything against AI and i do use it for fun sometimes and people should use the things that brings them joy

For me it feels more like a musical version of a slotmachine where you hit the jackpot after using a few credits.

Suno should have made it so you could sell your tracks on the Suno platform and earn a little from streamed songs

[ghettosynth]

Do any of those suno videos you posted have any views?

No.

[Munin]

If you, as a musician, don't create the notes, the melody, or the riff
yourself, what role do you still play? You could promptly say, "I want
to hear a danceable song with synth bass now." The AI ​​will then do
it in seconds. Similarly, you could put in a CD of a bass-synth band.
That happens just as quickly, and the song isn't created by you either.
With AI, you're making a pact with the devil, because the AI ​​is doing
the most important thing for you. For as a "creative musician," you
have completely bowed out.

ghettosynth kind of alluded to it but I also think this kind of again reveals a misunderstanding who Suno is primarily directed at (which I've already mentioned in the Suno thread). It isn't professional musicians (although no doubt in my mind that songwriters in the Pop or Hip Hop industry - or anywhere where there is less of a mental barrier for "just taking stuff and running with it" - are already using it at least for ideation), it's the same people who turn on Netflix "just to watch something to pass the time".

These people already do not really care all that much about music as some sacred artistic art form. They aren't really musicians themselves, they just want to play around a little after coming home from work. In that sense Suno really is not all that different from other consumer-oriented music software released over the last few decades, like Propellerheads Figure, which basically was just a bunch of loops you could turn off and on. And there's also nothing wrong with this. Everyone has different interests and priorities. I think people who care about making music "the old fashioned way" will not really feel affected by this and neither will people who like artists precisely for still making music the old fashioned way.

[enroe]

If you, as a musician, don't create the notes, the melody, or the riff
yourself, what role do you still play? You could promptly say, "I want
to hear a danceable song with synth bass now." The AI ​​will then do
it in seconds. Similarly, you could put in a CD of a bass-synth band.
That happens just as quickly, and the song isn't created by you either.
With AI, you're making a pact with the devil, because the AI ​​is doing
the most important thing for you. For as a "creative musician," you
have completely bowed out.

ghettosynth kind of alluded to it but I also think this kind of again reveals a misunderstanding who Suno is primarily directed at (which I've already mentioned in the Suno thread). It isn't professional musicians (although no doubt in my mind that songwriters in the Pop or Hip Hop industry - or anywhere where there is less of a mental barrier for "just taking stuff and running with it" - are already using it at least for ideation), it's the same people who turn on Netflix "just to watch something to pass the time".

These people already do not really care all that much about music as some sacred artistic art form. They aren't really musicians themselves, they just want to play around a little after coming home from work. In that sense Suno really is not all that different from other consumer-oriented music software released over the last few decades, like Propellerheads Figure, which basically was just a bunch of loops you could turn off and on. And there's also nothing wrong with this. Everyone has different interests and priorities. I think people who care about making music "the old fashioned way" will not really feel affected by this and neither will people who like artists precisely for still making music the old fashioned way.

Munin, what you’re describing is certainly true for a large number
of people: SUNO isn’t aimed primarily at professional musicians.
Nor does SUNO seek to push musicians out. And here on the
forum, too, most people dabble with SUNO in an almost autistic
fashion, without any serious consequences.

But that is just one side of the story. It feels to me as though history
is repeating itself here: the Internet emerged in the 1990s, and
back then, too, many people said, "It’s just a fringe phenomenon
— an additional way to send mail, meant only for a small group of
people." Yet the Internet revolutionized — and almost completely
reinvented — everything: communication, the sales and
advertising landscape, and even the way we socialize. Many
things have become much simpler and more productive — and
yet, numerous new dangers have arisen as a result.

But now, let's turn to AI and the "SUNO" phenomenon:

Here, too, I believe the AI ​​phenomenon (SUNO, etc.) is being
underestimated by many. Of course, SUNO’s management
downplays it, saying, "We’re just a small piece of entertainment
software." And many people here use prompts simply to quickly
generate new songs or song segments.

But the bigger picture is different: The most important platforms
for new songs and new musicians are Spotify and Deezer. Both
have been struggling for about a year to avoid being completely
overwhelmed by AI-generated songs. In 2025, 50,000 fully AI-
generated tracks were added to the Deezer platform every single
day (!).

Source: Here. And, of course, many, many others.

Both Deezer and Spotify created new tools designed to detect
AI-generated songs. However, song generators like SUNO and
others adapt quickly, rendering AI detection ineffective after only
a short time. Consequently, it will remain a cat-and-mouse game
— and no one will be able to tell whether a song is AI-generated
or not.

The AI ​​musician "Breaking Rust" reached number 1 on the
Billboard Country Digital Sales Chart with one song. The soul
singer "Sienna Rose" — also an AI creation — reaches 2.8 million
monthly listeners on Spotify. Even for experts the songs are
indistinguishable from human-made music, or only in very rare
cases.

SUNO is constantly evolving, but new and even better
AIs will also enter the scene alongside it. Policymakers are preoccupied
with other regulatory issues — such as opinion formation on social
platforms, demagoguery, and manipulation — rather than
addressing AIs used for creative content generation. Consequently,
AIs will have free rein to continue doing what they are already
doing: quietly and unobtrusively taking over the entire creative
market. After all, there is immense cost pressure, particularly in the
commercial sector. Driven by this pressure, AI adoption will
accelerate in this area, eventually becoming the norm even for
music managers.

In this way, AI — working in the background, barely noticeable to
many — is displacing the musician as the creator of songs. Due
to the sheer volume of AI-generated tracks and the overwhelming
availability of songs created via AI prompts, music is being
relegated to a form of background accompaniment. It is turning
into a standard, AI-generated stream of audio — a ubiquitous
element of entertainment. Entirely generated by AI.

We are entering a new era. An era in which music as an
expression of individual human beings has been virtually
abolished.

[Munin]

Sure that is a fair assessment. But let's not forget that the streaming platforms were already struggling with "fake music" before Suno had ever entered the picture. People were uploading millions of variations of loops slapped together haphazardly, or gaming the system in other ways. There was a huge outcry about Spotify-owned playlists with thousands of songs by "fake artists" and so on. All before AI.

Music as a commodity relegated to "background accompaniment" far predates AI.

[TheMaestro]

Huh, BONES got suspended, I wonder why.

He outsourced "his" music to AI.
Music that is so low effort in the first place that it doesn't need AI for anything

Why he is in here discussing sounds, quality, instruments, etc. is a mystery.
But I bet it's just to keep up his band's "angry" vibe, because that's all there is to their music.
Good riddance.

[Hipster Bales]

He outsourced "his" music to AI.
Music that is so low effort in the first place that it doesn't need AI for anything

BONES said the exact same thing about my own music, even though I put a lot of effort into my music (sound design, tension/release, key modulation to change the vibe, etc).

Why he is in here discussing sounds, quality, instruments, etc. is a mystery.
But I bet it's just to keep up his band's "angry" vibe, because that's all there is to their music.
Good riddance.

Good riddance indeed! The music that they made with AI sounds terrible in my opinion (mix-wise).

Compare NOVAkILL (or should I say AI's) tracks:
https://soundcloud.com/novakill-1/silentconsent
https://soundcloud.com/novakill-1/frost-on-broken-words

to some of my own and Madeon's tracks:
https://soundcloud.com/hipster-bales/hemsworth
https://soundcloud.com/madeon/madeon-icarus
https://soundcloud.com/madeon/madeon-shuriken
https://soundcloud.com/hipster-bales/hi ... s-heatwave