Moving from FL Studio -> Bitwig 6 - Any reason to maybe consider Ableton?

[Dionysos]

Changing DAW takes a while and even then you will probably have more muscle memory in FLS than for the new DAW... 10 years cannot be errased that easily
Important is just to decide after a few month if the new programm is beneficial in terms of speed, workflow etc.. over the old one... but first it must be "the only one" for some time to really learn it and get a feeling for it...

Agree, I was going to write something similar. It sounds like you're overthinking things quite a bit Caine123. IMO just give Bitwig (or Live, whatever) a good fair shake for a few weeks or months. Develop some new muscle memory. If it hasn't clicked after that time or you're constantly hitting roadblocks that prevent you from making the music you want, you have your answer, and it'll be easy enough to go back to FL.

[Caine123]

Changing DAW takes a while and even then you will probably have more muscle memory in FLS than for the new DAW... 10 years cannot be errased that easily
Important is just to decide after a few month if the new programm is beneficial in terms of speed, workflow etc.. over the old one... but first it must be "the only one" for some time to really learn it and get a feeling for it...

Agree, I was going to write something similar. It sounds like you're overthinking things quite a bit Caine123. IMO just give Bitwig (or Live, whatever) a good fair shake for a few weeks or months. Develop some new muscle memory. If it hasn't clicked after that time or you're constantly hitting roadblocks that prevent you from making the music you want, you have your answer, and it'll be easy enough to go back to FL.

thanks so much to both of you, yes definitely you are right!
This time howeer I wanted to invest the time, first check the differences so I am clear knowing in the first weeks if/what i would be missing out when not using e.g. Ableton 12, so this is good to know, the whole notes and list I did is helping me too not to forget. and this way i could replicate a lot of FL Studio's ways in Bitwig and see WHAT i need and use, now comes the time to really start some music and see how all works out in reality . interesting time!

if all sucks and i just quarrel and get nothing done im gonna start FL Studio and learned something from it, but next time I dont need to re-do the same process again but check what changed in the DAWs or stay forever on FL Studio !

[SamDi]

What I seldom hear in the Ableton Live vs. Bitwig thing is this:

-If you once should come to a situation, where you wanna collaborate with other mates, Live is kind of THE industry standard in all of the electronic (d) music realm. From all the people, I have met, making (actively) music with a DAW, almost all of them use AL. I know one who uses FL Studio. And I know zero in real live, using Bitwig.

-Because of the different spread amounts: AL is much better supported by all external HW. My Fantom has a DAW control feature for Ableton, Logic, Cubase. Bitwig? No.
As I had once a NI Komplete Kontrol keyboard. The DAW control features worked as a charm in AL. Bitwig? No.

Also all the Pushs and APCs are primarily designed for AL. Because of the DrivenByMoss stuff it works with Bitwig also, but it stands and falls with the engagement from Mr. Moßgraber.

What me personally annoys AF, is the BW business model. They charge you for one
year update cycle and this isn‘t sufficient to get even one major version fully supported with updates.While with Ableton you paid for one major version update and since beginning of 12, they delivered huuuge features increasement. I wanted to redeem my already purchased update cycle since over 1 1/2 years and waited for bringing finally V6 release, but since they are so slow, I decided to wait till 6.1 to have at least a little bigger chance to get updates till e/o V6 lifecycle. And then they use your money to develop HW and other stuff, like CLAP format, which allocates resources furthermore and makes them even slower. If they don‘t fundamentally change that approach, not getting one major version fully supported with one paying, I am done with them after V6.


So if you are more on the experimental side, BW is very cool, but as soon as you apply collaboration with others or support from HW on it or expect proper updates for one paying till e/o a major version cycle, the thing shifts towards AL from my perspective.

[Caine123]

What I seldom hear in the Ableton Live vs. Bitwig thing is this:

-If you once should come to a situation, where you wanna collaborate with other mates, Live is kind of THE industry standard in all of the electronic (d) music realm. From all the people, I have met, making (actively) music with a DAW, almost all of them use AL. I know one who uses FL Studio. And I know zero in real live, using Bitwig.

-Because of the different spread amounts: AL is much better supported by all external HW. My Fantom has a DAW control feature for Ableton, Logic, Cubase. Bitwig? No.
As I had once a NI Komplete Kontrol keyboard. The DAW control features worked as a charm in AL. Bitwig? No.

Also all the Pushs and APCs are primarily designed for AL. Because of the DrivenByMoss stuff it works with Bitwig also, but it stands and falls with the engagement from Mr. Moßgraber.

What me personally annoys AF, is the BW business model. They charge you for one
year update cycle and this isn‘t sufficient to get even one major version fully supported with updates.While with Ableton you paid for one major version update and since beginning of 12, they delivered huuuge features increasement. I wanted to redeem my already purchased update cycle since over 1 1/2 years and waited for bringing finally V6 release, but since they are so slow, I decided to wait till 6.1 to have at least a little bigger chance to get updates till e/o V6 lifecycle. And then they use your money to develop HW and other stuff, like CLAP format, which allocates resources furthermore and makes them even slower. If they don‘t fundamentally change that approach, not getting one major version fully supported with one paying, I am done with them after V6.


So if you are more on the experimental side, BW is very cool, but as soon as you apply collaboration with others or support from HW on it or expect proper updates for one paying till e/o a major version cycle, the thing shifts towards AL from my perspective.

First thanks so much for your reply with a lot of interesting infos for me

yes one of my friends is also using Ableton since Ableton 6 or 7 I think, but he doesnt use it/makes music regularly. I got my Ableton 11 Suite license and will keep it, as Ableton will be and still might be in consideration still.

the good thing I noticed while 95% using Bitwig v6 within the last month more than Ableton 12 Suite DEMO that it benefits learning it as I understand Ableton's workflow better than before, but of course it benefits as i had to learn Bitwig more coming from FL Studio , thats not the biggest EVERYTHING is so different but still many things are differently working.

what spoke against Ableton so far for me is mostly the GUI, sounds strange but I just still dont like it, i think it would grow on me just working with it for a month at least, i need to test it maybe still this year. Bitwig got me so much more interested. I duno how much the sanboxing from Bitwig might be better or not in my case as FL Studio really got great/much better for me as well, but maybe this is a nice side feature for me now. I found some stuff I definitely like in Ableton more than in Bitwig, atm I need to check which workflow is better for me, even with Bitwig and Ableton in SO MANY regards better for my cases than FL Studio I dont rule out that FL Studio might be more motivating to produce for me....

I really hope Bitwig will improve also in the points from you, while learning Bitwig i was a bit surprised they still got a quite small userbase, just comparing the subs on social media, reddit, available videos etc. Bitwig might be even more risky as Ableton shouldnt be getting out of business any time soon while Bitwig with a much smaller userbase and I guess devteam? and much much less people knowing it who knows if something happens....

[Dionysos]

If they don‘t fundamentally change that approach, not getting one major version fully supported with one paying, I am done with them after V6.

I wouldn't get my hopes up, I don't see that happening.

[Caine123]

If they don‘t fundamentally change that approach, not getting one major version fully supported with one paying, I am done with them after V6.

I wouldn't get my hopes up, I don't see that happening.

yeah the price model is really sucking hard! i wonder if they would have more customers when they would do it like Ableton. 1 Version and 1 Upgrade thats it. this yearly upgrade price is even more expensive if you wanna stay updated on one version if it is a 2 year cycle. i wonder if this higher priced update plan is already showing more output?

normally if you pay more for such an upgrade i expect also more content, more updates, more stuff... but I dunno myself, i have not much history with them, could only compare charts what they changed, added etc. within the last 2 versions with e.g. Ableton's last 2 versions and how long it took em.

[Munin]

Weirdly enough, 10 years in I feel like Bitwig's UI is starting to feel somewhat dated now, even though at the time of the first release it felt quite forward-thinking. Odd how those sensibilities can change within a few years.

[pdxindy]

yeah the price model is really sucking hard!

Is it really?

Bitwig costs me a little over $10 a month. I spend much more than that every month on cat food! And for that, I get a DAW that I enjoy using and which fulfills my music making wishes. I also get tech support and over time, refinements and new features. Seems good to me.

I bought Logic Pro more than a decade ago and it cost $200. Logic has had many updates since and I haven't had to pay anything besides the initial $200. Logic Pro is a more complete DAW than Bitwig, plus it's cheaper over time and is better supported. BY those criteria, Logic is the better choice. The thing is, I enjoy the fundamental workflow of Bitwig more.

I have Logic, Live and Bitwig. Of the 3, Bitwig is my favorite for basic workflow and for having minimal friction. If Bitwig went out of business, I'd switch to Logic. Live is my least favorite of the 3, but if that was all I had it would be fine. Every DAW these days is plenty good enough.

[Caine123]

yeah the price model is really sucking hard!

Is it really?

Bitwig costs me a little over $10 a month. I spend much more than that every month on cat food! And for that, I get a DAW that I enjoy using and which fulfills my music making wishes. I also get tech support and over time, refinements and new features. Seems good to me.

I bought Logic Pro more than a decade ago and it cost $200. Logic has had many updates since and I haven't had to pay anything besides the initial $200. Logic Pro is a more complete DAW than Bitwig, plus it's cheaper over time and is better supported. BY those criteria, Logic is the better choice. The thing is, I enjoy the fundamental workflow of Bitwig more.

I have Logic, Live and Bitwig. Of the 3, Bitwig is my favorite for basic workflow and for having minimal friction. If Bitwig went out of business, I'd switch to Logic. Live is my least favorite of the 3, but if that was all I had it would be fine. Every DAW these days is plenty good enough.

nothing against your opinion but I read that logic often, you can always excuse such prices with this "oh i pay more at mcdonalds, starbucks etc." doesnt make the price better. as i said I dunno how well the updates are compared to Ableton. But fact is that Bitwig is more expensive IF! you calculate maybe 2x 160 bucks? = 320 bucks for 2 years coverage (just an example) and Ableton 1x 200 bucks for 2 years. average. so yeah if it is worth it for you doesnt mean the facts are different that Bitwig seems more expensive IF you calculate like that and calculate with instant upgrade coverage.

[pdxindy]

But fact is that Bitwig is more expensive

Yes, it is. If a few dollars a month matters enough to you to make a decision based on that, that's your choice. To me, every DAW is cheap and so I don't consider price an important criteria. I prefer to buy the software I want. If I were poor, I would still buy the software I wanted (Bitwig) and then just upgrade every other year instead of annually.

BTW, I have not once purchased a Bitwig upgrade for $169. I always buy them on sale for $129 ($85 during the 10th year anniversary where I bought multiple).

[Caine123]

But fact is that Bitwig is more expensive

Yes, it is. If a few dollars a month matters enough to you to make a decision based on that, that's your choice. To me, every DAW is cheap and so I don't consider price an important criteria. I prefer to buy the software I want. If I were poor, I would still buy the software I wanted (Bitwig) and then just upgrade every other year instead of annually.

BTW, I have not once purchased a Bitwig upgrade for $169. I always buy them on sale for $129 ($85 during the 10th year anniversary where I bought multiple).

then you didnt read the stuff before, dont have to, but you dont understand the connections. nah i already purchased the plan. facts are facts, subjective decisions and sales are not changing facts.

for me if the upgrade is worth it i pay, i am coming from FL Studio which has LIFETIME free upgrades (until now it is true) so if it would be for the money i would still be sticking there only. but i decided to not, so i hope Bitwig delivers more for the higher updates prices, and so far, for me they deliver already better in many aspects. hopefully they will dliver also more than Ableton soon

[Trancit]

... so i hope Bitwig delivers more for the higher updates prices, and so far, for me they deliver already better in many aspects. hopefully they will dliver also more than Ableton soon

I wouldn´t hang my hopes too high...

90% of all Bitwig updates of the past were mostly very nerdy stuff pushing it´s modularity with devices and Grid devices or other stuff I don´t really need like creating systems for the usage of multiple Audio devices... might be a biggie for some but for the average bedroom producer I really don´t know... for me definetely not!

For me just V6 was a huge change but now with 6.1 it goes back to their "devices mode" which many Bitwig users love and demand... I have bought my update cycle serial during this sale atm but for 6.1 I won´t activate it...
If I decide to go with Bitwig I would try to use one upgrade plan for a 2 year cycle...
Not because I don´t have the money ... just because many updates weren´t worth it for me in the past and somehow I doubt this will highly change in future because of the demands of their user base (and their own vision)...

Live have had very poor times as well but updates were in general more workflow oriented and less in the sound design direction...
Live 12 otoh was from the very beginning a banger and has in it´s point updates continued to be...
The Abes are really on fire atm and Live 12 is getting so mighty that probably it would be enough for me for a long time...

Update wise I rate Ableton a ton better than Bitwig for my personal needs and as Ableton is the far more mature product out of the 2 anyway it would be actually the more logical choice... if there wasn´t this thing about "feelings and motivation"

I am in the same boat like you that I feel in FLS more motivated and creative...
I just need to find out if this is caused by the long term "just being used to it" or if there is something "magical" inside of FLS which just inspires me more...
I hope for the first...

[Caine123]

... so i hope Bitwig delivers more for the higher updates prices, and so far, for me they deliver already better in many aspects. hopefully they will dliver also more than Ableton soon

I wouldn´t hang my hopes too high...

90% of all Bitwig updates of the past were mostly very nerdy stuff pushing it´s modularity with devices and Grid devices or other stuff I don´t really need like creating systems for the usage of multiple Audio devices... might be a biggie for some but for the average bedroom producer I really don´t know... for me definetely not!

For me just V6 was a huge change but now with 6.1 it goes back to their "devices mode" which many Bitwig users love and demand... I have bought my update cycle serial during this sale atm but for 6.1 I won´t activate it...
If I decide to go with Bitwig I would try to use one upgrade plan for a 2 year cycle...
Not because I don´t have the money ... just because many updates weren´t worth it for me in the past and somehow I doubt this will highly change in future because of the demands of their user base (and their own vision)...

Live have had very poor times as well but updates were in general more workflow oriented and less in the sound design direction...
Live 12 otoh was from the very beginning a banger and has in it´s point updates continued to be...
The Abes are really on fire atm and Live 12 is getting so mighty that probably it would be enough for me for a long time...

Update wise I rate Ableton a ton better than Bitwig for my personal needs and as Ableton is the far more mature product out of the 2 anyway it would be actually the more logical choice... if there wasn´t this thing about "feelings and motivation"

I am in the same boat like you that I feel in FLS more motivated and creative...
I just need to find out if this is caused by the long term "just being used to it" or if there is something "magical" inside of FLS which just inspires me more...
I hope for the first...

thx so much Trancit, as you seem to have more knowledge of the Updates they deliver(ed).

yeah I mean the new sampler seems to be really a great update (as you know yourself, the FL Studio Sampler upate is a joke compared to this one!) but I hope that the next updates fro Bitwig wont be only more devices.... i checked some videos and they changed the pencil tools' behavior, reworked the automation lanes and removed some small icons in the tabs etc. I can imagine many users were used to it, i read good and bad feedback about it. so hmmm let's see.

i am already doing some first tracks in Bitwig to check the workflow and work on the muscle memory, cannot judge yet but yeah the piano roll is getting better but still not FL Studio like and I somehow work more with shortcuts in Bitwig which makes a lot of thing faster as i can also mostly change the, opening/closing plugins, not having to look for their floaty windows, especially the automation stuff is so much more enjoyable and you can pitch with real values in semitones, can you believe it? also the quick managing of copy pasting effects and moving them to new channels etc. makes it a joy. I dunno if i liked it more so far or was also inspired by it, i did mostly more short sketches and didnt flesh them out much in the timeline yet, oh Trancit maybe interesting for you, the pitching behavior is different in Bitwig. i like the FL Studio behavior in the playlist more but in Bitwig you got maybe some more options I set the behavior to RAW so it is kinda like FL Studio, but depending if i change the tempo you need to manually adjust it again how you want to the samples be changed or not. I found also if you pitch a sample in the playlist to use STRETCH PRO, it sounds maybe 95% to the algorithm of FL Studio, but here it comes, you can stretch more than +/- 12 semitones which is nice to test and adjust the pitch, sometimes i need -13 or -14 and this is not possible without consolidating in FL first...

so yeah about Ableton, yes i will leave it on my Disk as well, should i feel Bitwig is in some ways not intuitive, i miss some functions or maybe i will produce 1 month with Bitwig and 1 Month with Ableton and then check how i like it i will proceed then, so far as i said to learn Bitwig is good to be able to understand Ableton easier i think too.

i checked also random posts and saw that it seems for both Bitwig and Ableton, Users never really know the roadmap? I mean sure with FL Studio you dunno much too but I really miss this from them, to tap in the dark fully and not seemingly having a voice it feels like on FL Studio board where you know you REALLY read replies from Scott etc.

[Trancit]

...
so yeah about Ableton, yes i will leave it on my Disk as well, should i feel Bitwig is in some ways not intuitive, i miss some functions or maybe i will produce 1 month with Bitwig and 1 Month with Ableton and then check how i like it i will proceed then, so far as i said to learn Bitwig is good to be able to understand Ableton easier i think too.

just a little notice as I saw you writing once that the upgrade price from 11 > 12 of Live would be out of range for you atm:
Now it is possible to rent-to-own upgrades too from Ableton directly... this wasn´t possible before but somehow they managed to include this now as well... nice move I think... I mostly like RTO plans better with bigger amounts to pay so for me that´s a huge plus!

From their website ( https://www.ableton.com/en/rent-to-own-ableton-live/ ):

Upgrading to Live 12 Suite?

You can now upgrade to Live 12 Suite with a rent-to-own plan from an older Live version, or from Live Lite, Intro, or Standard. Rent-to-own upgrade plans range from 8 to 21 months depending on your current Live license.

i checked also random posts and saw that it seems for both Bitwig and Ableton, Users never really know the roadmap? I mean sure with FL Studio you dunno much too but I really miss this from them, to tap in the dark fully and not seemingly having a voice it feels like on FL Studio board where you know you REALLY read replies from Scott etc.

Yeah, that´s something IL got right for sure... the communication with us is for sure often stressful ... especially with dicks like me tending to overact... but they got never tired to keep this up...
All others were very closed from the beginning or got tired to fight with the userbase and the inevitable complaints which are always coming... so communication > stressful > no communication anymore...
Bitwigs are the perfect example for that but nearly all others doing the same...

The only difference for me: Most of the others got already what I want/need... updates aren´t such a huge part for me in this case...
FLS otoh lacks of many things I wish for and communication doesn´t help because of technical limitations... they have manoeuvred themselves into a corner with the way they let FLS function which seems to please a bunch of people but seem to make it impossible to fullfil nowadays standards...
In this case communication is a nice bonus but doesn´t really help in allday situations if you expect a bit more from the software...

[Caine123]

...
so yeah about Ableton, yes i will leave it on my Disk as well, should i feel Bitwig is in some ways not intuitive, i miss some functions or maybe i will produce 1 month with Bitwig and 1 Month with Ableton and then check how i like it i will proceed then, so far as i said to learn Bitwig is good to be able to understand Ableton easier i think too.

just a little notice as I saw you writing once that the upgrade price from 11 > 12 of Live would be out of range for you atm:
Now it is possible to rent-to-own upgrades too from Ableton directly... this wasn´t possible before but somehow they managed to include this now as well... nice move I think... I mostly like RTO plans better with bigger amounts to pay so for me that´s a huge plus!

From their website ( https://www.ableton.com/en/rent-to-own-ableton-live/ ):

Upgrading to Live 12 Suite?

You can now upgrade to Live 12 Suite with a rent-to-own plan from an older Live version, or from Live Lite, Intro, or Standard. Rent-to-own upgrade plans range from 8 to 21 months depending on your current Live license.

i checked also random posts and saw that it seems for both Bitwig and Ableton, Users never really know the roadmap? I mean sure with FL Studio you dunno much too but I really miss this from them, to tap in the dark fully and not seemingly having a voice it feels like on FL Studio board where you know you REALLY read replies from Scott etc.

Yeah, that´s something IL got right for sure... the communication with us is for sure often stressful ... especially with dicks like me tending to overact... but they got never tired to keep this up...
All others were very closed from the beginning or got tired to fight with the userbase and the inevitable complaints which are always coming... so communication > stressful > no communication anymore...
Bitwigs are the perfect example for that but nearly all others doing the same...

The only difference for me: Most of the others got already what I want/need... updates aren´t such a huge part for me in this case...
FLS otoh lacks of many things I wish for and communication doesn´t help because of technical limitations... they have manoeuvred themselves into a corner with the way they let FLS function which seems to please a bunch of people but seem to make it impossible to fullfil nowadays standards...
In this case communication is a nice bonus but doesn´t really help in allday situations if you expect a bit more from the software...

@Update for Ableton
thx for the info, i should rephrase my sentence better , I dont want to pay the amount of money, will wait for a sale. i would have paid it if i would have made my decision for Ableton 12 now then the 50 bucks wouldnt hold me off but it didnt strike me that much more to say "ok Ableton 12 blows away Bitwig, i will pay the upgrade asap!" then i would have done it, but again appreciate sharing the info

@FL Studio
perfectly summarized! am in the same ballpark, even if they cannot or dont want to, like in real likfe if someone only talks talks talks but there is no result it is a waste of time (of course depending on the situations).