Sample CDs dev & copyrights, things I don't undertsand..

[SampleScience]

PS: do you use soundfonts when creating your stuff?

no.

When you say "samples", are you talking about samples as in a soundfont, or snippets of music like loops and such?

I'm talking about loops & one-shots.

But if you're playing little grooves or loops or "paints for sound canvasses", more complex than single-note samples, then IMHO it would be fine to include sounds from sample based instruments.

It would be fair, yeah, but the Hollow Sun cds will include one-shots from drum machines like the Alesis SR16. The SR16 can still be bought from Alesis:

http://www.alesis.com/products/sr16/index.html

But if you're playing little grooves or loops or "paints for sound canvasses", more complex than single-note samples, then IMHO it would be fine to include sounds from sample based instruments.

Grey area imo since you're using soundware to create soundware. Maybe it would be worth trying to contact companies to know if it's legal.

[SampleScience]

By your argument, all those Steinway piano, Gibson Les Paul, Fender bass, etc., libraries are also illegal as they use samples of someone's intellectual copyright.

A Steinway Piano is not sample based so it's ok to sample it. Same thing with a Les Paul & a Fender bass, they are not sample base.

Since a sample is a recording you cannot re-record a sound module's sample & sell it as soundware, because they'll have the same functionality.
So non-analog drum machines drum kits are out if you want to legally sell them, unless, of course you've go the permission from the original owner of the sound. In this case it's Alesis & Roland.

Sells them at you at own risk, but I wouldn't like to see you're website disapear because you got sued by a soundware company!

[learjeff]

Hollowsun,

with any copyright that might have existed likely to have elapsed

Your heart may be in the right place, but copyrights currently last 70 years after the author's death (unless renewed). Previously, they lasted 50 years past the author's death. So, unless you're sampling recordings made in the 50's at the latest, the copyrights have not lapsed.

Also, there is no phonorecord copyright to a Steinway piano because a real piano doesn't involve recordings. The opposite is true of a sample-based instrument.

You should consult a lawyer if you want to know your legal situation. I'm sure you're a good guy trying to do the right thing, but you could still be sued. Since you do this non-profit, it's probably not criminal. (Note: the new DCMA legislation did make criminal certain kinds of non-profit distribution, like using Napster to distribute CDs. I have no idea whether that would apply to Hollowsun.)

I'm not an attorney, so don't take my word for it. But you're not an attorney, so don't trust your own legal opinion either.

[hollowsun]

A Steinway Piano is not sample based so it's ok to sample it. Same thing with a Les Paul & a Fender bass, they are not sample base.

Agreed and understood. But....

One could argue that a comprehensive sample set of any of these instruments is potentially damaging to the sales of these companies' products and (technically) their intellectual copyright.

I suppose the definition of conscience I have (and whether or not it falls in the bounds of legality is, I suppose, questionable) but with one or two exceptions, NONE of the sounds at the Hollow Sun site are taken from existing products... all are out of date and not in production, copyright (if any) is questionable and some or many of those involved are (sadly) no longer with us.

I have a strict policy of not featuring any samples of any instruments that are currently in production and I turn down as many offerings of donations (if not more) than I accept. Only the other day, I was offered the complete soundset from some JoMox box and, however attractive it would have been to feature it, I refused it immediately. On the other hand, when I get get a donation of some 30-yr-old Polish string synth that ceased production back in 1976, I embrace it with open arms.

Similarly, easy as it would be for me to go round the local music stores renting or borrowing any new and current products to sample them, I don't as I believe this would be unethical. Neither do I take samples from any current software instruments (for the same reason).

I'll also tell you that, given my previous close association with Akai, they were absolutely chuffed to see their XE8 featured on the site because despite my criticisms of the UI in the feature, it acknowledged the product's pioneering contribution to the industry. I didn't get permission to feature the sounds.

I can only imagine that the same is true for other 'out of production' products. I mean... what objection can, say, Korg have for featuring their DDD1 or DDM110/220 given that these products ceased production many years back - Korg's technology has moved on and my feature only goes to show how pioneering these products were. Or, say, Kawai and their drum machines or additive synths... Kawai are barely in this area of the business anymore and I imagine that IF they even knew of my activities, they would be similarly appreciative of my appraisal of their contribution to the greater musical environment which we now enjoy. And so on.

And are Alesis gonna come after me for my NanoBass samples? I doubt it... the product was discontinued many years ago and my feature only draws attention to the company's previous innovations and maybe their current activities.

If I thought for one minute that anything I have on my site conflicts with any manufacturer's commercial interests (or if I had any legal representation that it was), that page would be pulled immediately with a very public apology.

The fact remains (as I will re-iterate) that Hollow Sun has been in existence for over three and a half years now. In this time, I have always been sympathetic to manufacturers' commercial considerations and I would never feature anything that might have an adverse affect on the sales of any existing products. I have also been developing sound library for 20 years or so and have never fallen foul of the law.

In the few cases where I have featured existing products at Hollow Sun, this has either been with prior permission or with retrospective approval of the company involved.

I have no moral dilemna (even though - technically - it could fly in the face of the law!).

I wouldn't like to see you're website disapear because you got sued by a soundware company!

Well... frankly speaking - legal action isn't gonna close the site down (it's not been an issue in 3yrs+). What is now gonna close this site down is people's reluctance to put their hands in their pocket and buy my CDs to help support not only the site but me and my family too.

Steve
http://www.hollowsun.com

[SampleScience]

Hi Steve,

No offense here, I saw the samples CDs you're selling & they are all original synthetizer patches. I thought you were going to sell samples from sample based instruments, which, in my opinion is not 100% safe, even if it's loops or musical "parts".

I understand the point of Bassballjg that sample based instruments can be use to create loops since loops are short musical performances. But I wouldn't take the risk personnally to sell such loops even if I think & understand it's fair use.

I wish you all good luck in selling your sounds, I'm currently working on a drum loops cd, all 100% original sounds recordings & even if it's hard work I love the process of making them!

best wishes,

SampleScience

[tee boy]

Good for you fella. If only there were more like you around... we'd probably be using vastly more interesting samples!

Just to clarify, all the sounds on you CD were either recorded or synthesised by you? Nothing derived from vinyl samples or old pcm synths / drum machines?

Also, what is the style, estimated sample count and price of this release? Will it be released by yourself or through an established developer?

[SampleScience]

Good for you fella. If only there were more like you around... we'd probably be using vastly more interesting samples!

Thanks!

Just to clarify, all the sounds on you CD were either recorded or synthesised by you? Nothing derived from vinyl samples or old pcm synths / drum machines?

It will be synthetic drum sounds made to sounds like processed breaks, it's a lot of work, just last night I have spent 4 hours to create a 2 bars drum loop, I think I'm a perfectionist!

Also, what is the style, estimated sample count and price of this release? Will it be released by yourself or through an established developer?

The style will be breakbeats in various speed suited for hip hop, drum & bass, jungle, ambient, downtempo, etc...
I'm thinking about either a cd or a website like MI7 Libraries with little preview applets for each sample for the release.
The price will be low (like 20-30$ for the cd & around 1$ per samples for the online library).

Cheers

[tee boy]

Awesome, I'll be sure to check it out once the product is finished (you can never have enough electronic drums!). I think if possible it would pay to offer both download and CD - most would probably be happy with the download mind. Maybe if you offer some free demo samples it would help build interest?

[Prefab doubt]

Steve, your site is unreachable, it says "too much bandwidhth used"...
check it out

[Mr. Tunes]

SampleScience, i think your question is quite valid and has been argued countless times on this forum in the past few years.

I always cite the case of Gino Nave's Cratedigging product that came out a few years ago. 30 dollars and had great hits in it. but he wasnt afraid to admit that many of these sounds came from vinyl records, and done the old recycle + effects treatment on them(and probably added a lot of sounds from digital synths to complete the loops). i think it wouldve been hard to nail him on anything but the general vibe of the sample cd was not very reassuring to producers who are looking for royalty free stuff.

the company folded not too long after with no reasons given as to why it is folded but i assume the premise of his product did not inspire people to buy it.

my advice to you is to record players on your own and add vinyl noises to them. if you want to add scratch sounds to them i would do this digitally with something like final scratch or a good plugin.

and maybe you want to make a mailing list to notify us when the product is done?

[tee boy]

There are countless BIG releases that are made completely from 'illegal' material. Take 'House Essentials' for example. Over 1500 loops and hits, created by layering and mixing vinyl samples and hits from old drum machines. But no one can say where a snare came from once you've stacked up a couple, EQ'ed and compressed the shite out of it. This is how these sounds are made, nothing wrong with that. Using samples as source material for new original sounds is fair game. Selling others work as your own is not. This is why copyright law stands - to prevent theft, not creativity. I think the same goes for any kind of sampling.

But i still respect SS's choice to use only stuff he's synthesised himself. At least this method should result in some unique sounding material. Not that i dont like vinyl sourced samples, but once you've heard one you've heard them all!

btw, If you start a list let me know, I'll be very interested to hear this release.

[learjeff]

hollowsun:

One could argue that a comprehensive sample set of any of these instruments is potentially damaging to the sales of these companies' products and (technically) their intellectual copyright.

Not in court, they couldn't. A copyright is a legal fiction -- i.e., it's a thing created by laws. That thing, as defined by the laws, wouldn't be infringed in this case, because a piano manufacturer simply can't copyright the sound of their instrument. A sample-based instrument manufacturer has a copyright for the samples their instrument is based on, even if it's samples of the aforementioned piano. That doesn't seem fair, but it's how the laws work out.

That's the legal issue.

Ethically and morally, we must all reach our own conclusions of what's right and wrong, and your position is laudable.

However, don't be fooled into thinking that you're not infringing on anyone's copyrights just because you only sample instruments that are no longer marketed. You may be on moral high ground, but legal low ground. However, I doubt it's high ground to use another's property without their permission. (Of course, that's only the case if you've sampled any sample-based instruments. If not, in the immortal words of Emily Latella, "Never mind!")

But even if you do include sample-based instruments, from a practical perspective you're probably OK. First of all, you say that you'll happily desist if requested by the manufacturer. The likelihood that you'll be sued by a copyright holder is small. The decision of whether to take that risk is up to you.

Just don't assume you're legally unassailable.

I wish you well.

PS: I'm not a lawyer, though have studied this subject a bit.

[SampleScience]

There are countless BIG releases that are made completely from 'illegal' material.

Quite true, I have a Magix sample CD with drum loops in it in which you can clearly hear sound bites of the "When The Levee Breaks" by Led Zeppelin!
I also tried a demo of Hip Hop eJay 2 last night & there was percussions samples from the Prodigy's Dirtchamber Session first track!
These products are mass produce & they never seems to have been sued for copyright violation.
But I think that in the long run people will prefer the companies who make their samples by themself, 100% copyright free like Spectrasonic for example.

[SampleScience]

and maybe you want to make a mailing list to notify us when the product is done?

btw, If you start a list let me know, I'll be very interested to hear this release.

Thanks for the interest, I'll prepared a free drum pack with 10 drum loops in it. Should take a couple of days since I'm such a perfectionist!

Cheers

[learjeff]

These products are mass produce & they never seems to have been sued for copyright violation.

Right -- it's up to the infringed party to sue (or not). There are famous hip hop albums that have been successfully sued over similar things.

Right now there's a problem with the laws concerning this kind of sampling (using sounds from pop albums in detailed "collages" of sounds like hip hop music). The problem is that, while there is a system to use copyrighted material easily (called "compulsory licence" or "mechanical licence"), the fee structure was set up for songs, not tiny clips. The resulting costs would be prohibitive for even very successful albums.

IMHO, it would be better for both the music industry and the fans of sampled music if there was a suitable structure when the sampled material is short and a very small part of the resulting composition. Of course, that opens up a whole can of worms. And the market for hip hop and other sample-based music, while very big, probably isn't big enough (or politically connected enough) to force legislation on the matter.

Currently, the legal issues are the same. But I think, and no doubt Hollowsun would agree, that there's a big difference between copying short clips from 100 different sources to weave together an original composition, versus sampling an instrument.

It's a case of technology changing things faster than laws and society can adjust to keep up. And, in the US, there generally needs to be either a big money interest or else a big popular interest in something to cause legal adjustments. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens concerning sample-based music. Currently, anyone releasing this kind of music without permission for every recognizable sample is taking the risk they'll be sued.

I doubt anything will change concerning sample-based instruments. I don't think anything really needs to change in this respect.