KVR Audio

grotman · Post by **grotman** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:38 pm

i don't know if anyones tried this(or if its an absolutely stupid idea) but what about running your tracks through a video player, the tapes wide as f**k and they are readily available. Just don;t know if what you get coming off the line outs in real time would be coming off tape. (mebbe an offline process?)

Or possibly(f**k i am tired,work all night ,uni for rest of the day, feeling craaaaaaaaazy) create a carrier signal..circuit noize,tape noise,tape compression, wow,flutter all that apparently desirable stuff and impose the recorded instrument onto that. could be an idea for a plug.

grotman · Post by **grotman** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:48 pm

anyone wanna comment on this?

jtxx000 · Post by **jtxx000** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:49 pm

doesn't voxengo have a plug that does this?

haydxn · Post by **haydxn** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:21 am

video tape is quite wide but it is mainly for the recording of a video signal.. the tape is made artificially 'wider' yet by running the signal in diagonal strips along the tape with a spinning head! it's all very complicated, but at the end of the day, the audio is actually given a fairly small piece of the tape to sit on; just a little bit at the edge!

here's a massive page i found showing you some info that you didn't want to know about video cassette technology!

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/sam/icets/vcr.htm

if you had the appropriate connectors on your VCR you could record to the audio track, just as you can record the sound on any tv programme or source (as long as it does accept specific audio inputs) and then you could play that back thru the outputs (if present) just as you would with any other tape. just don't expect too much in the way of quality!

jeffn1 · Post by **jeffn1** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:25 am

I know Sonar comes with a tape simulation plug in. I have heard pretty good things about it.

jeffn1

Bassballjg · Post by **Bassballjg** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:51 am

haydxn wrote:video tape is quite wide but it is mainly for the recording of a video signal.. the tape is made artificially 'wider' yet by running the signal in diagonal strips along the tape with a spinning head! it's all very complicated, but at the end of the day, the audio is actually given a fairly small piece of the tape to sit on; just a little bit at the edge!

here's a massive page i found showing you some info that you didn't want to know about video cassette technology!

http://repairfaq.cis.upenn.edu/sam/icets/vcr.htm

if you had the appropriate connectors on your VCR you could record to the audio track, just as you can record the sound on any tv programme or source (as long as it does accept specific audio inputs) and then you could play that back thru the outputs (if present) just as you would with any other tape. just don't expect too much in the way of quality!

Actually, reading further down in the article here linked, one sees that in HiFi VCRs, the audio signal is recorded to the same space as the video, so it's not just the narrow linear audio strip. This is what I recall being the case and it is good to have it recomfirmed. HiFi VCRs were very popular to mix to in the early 90's before DAT and then CDr came in as a low cost, high quality alternative to half track 1/4 or 1/2 inch tape. In fact VHS and Beta are half inch. But with the high speed rotating heads and long tape cassettes used at slow speed (the recording process is not speed sensitive for audio quality as in open reel audio tape) yeilds an excellent economy of track minute costs. I used to do it back in the day, and have been thinking of going back to it. As to being "analog" sounding, well, it is analog. I always found a nice bump at about 80hz (subjectively speaking, I never measured it but there was some good bass fullness) but more clarity in the highs as compared with my Tascam 22-2 at 15ips. Overall quality of recordings made on my old Panasonic S-VHS deck were comparable to DAT in my, my clients' and collegues' opinions.

haydxn · Post by **haydxn** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:48 am

look at me, saying one thing then blindly throwing in contrary information! well done for reading the page more than me

tbh i doubt if an old non-hifi vcr would have connectors anyway! but modern tech is all swish anyway. perhaps i shall give it a go! sorry to have been wrong. but i'm glad to have provided the right information also!

C00kie · Post by **C00kie** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:41 am

Just the other night I planned to run a RMAA audio test on my HiFi video recorder, didn't get to do it yet.

Did the same thing already on chrome cassette, with dolby B and C and DBX noise reduction... Boy those are worrying results, and we listened to that every minute of the day!

If the VCR is truely HiFi then its not worth it running it through. Just a bit of EQ and some soft limiting, and adding -60dB of white noise has the same effect. I have this antique "hifi" valve stereo amp that I sometimes use for a touch of lofi.

tonymead · Post by **tonymead** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:16 pm

We recorded some demos in a small demo studio about 10 years ago and they used vhs video tape to record to. They then mastered/bounced down to DAT tapes.

HTH, it's worth a try I suppose

tonymead

Mr. Tunes · Post by **Mr. Tunes** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:29 pm

i think some people use the VCR as a make-shift layback device. when they do this they are not trying to acheive the "tape" sound that is associated with real analog tape, more-or-less using this device as a cheap-man's DAT, as Baseball mentions

grotman · Post by **grotman** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:51 pm

Isn't VCR '''''''''''''real'''''''''' analogue tape.I mean ,not being digital and all.

C00kie · Post by **C00kie** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:16 pm

Everything is analog... until somebody says you may only use 0 and 1 signals

Bassballjg · Post by **Bassballjg** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:48 pm

Mr. Tunes wrote:i think some people use the VCR as a make-shift layback device. when they do this they are not trying to acheive the "tape" sound that is associated with real analog tape, more-or-less using this device as a cheap-man's DAT, as Baseball mentions

10-15 years ago, hifi VCR was a good alternative to DAT, and as an inexpensive storage solution insofar as they do sound good, they could still be a good choice. My recollection of mixing to one a/b/c'd with DAT and reel to reel is of an intermrdiate, hybrid sound. Not as much bottom as the 15ips reel, but much less noise and more open, clearer, cleaner highs, but those highs were "warmer" (that awful word, but it is sometimes the best one we have) than DAT's and the lows fuller and more forward than digital. So there must have been in some way some "analog" artifacts to the sound of VCR if only because it is analog and tape behaves as tape behaves. The VCR was closer to the sound of the good 1/2" 30ips macines in the big studios I had been in but not as robust or full. But definately "warmer" than DAT and "cleaner" than inexpensive 15ips 1/4".

The down side relatve to the other media, and especially now to CDr, is locating and scrolling. If you didn't start documenting every minute from the very start and never miss anything, you were f**ked and had to go hunting through hours of tape for that one mix you wanted. Even if you did document properly, however, there was still the probelm of long wind times and the relative imprecision of the transport which on consumer decks are fast and crude. By the time the tape starts to shuttle you're past where you want to be before you can stop. Very hard to set a cue point, as it could not be audibly scrubbed. This could be mitigated to an extent by laying down SMPTE, but that's more gear and another level of hassle. All that and the lack of editablility, which isn't a real deal breaker since you have to transfer to some digital media anyway.

DAT was already digital, and digital was the end delivery to the listener. My reel to reel was a lower grade Tascam and I didn't have the money for a better 1/2 inch 2-track. So in the end it was DAT, and now CDr. When I add my second computer to use as a dedicated DAW, I will mix to this one routing my soundcard anolog out through my mixer just to get some flavor and color from a trip through the analog circuit, and have the opportunity to add some good analog outboard.

I am not an analog fetishist. However, I have had some experience both in my studio and in others with a variety of gear and my tastes are based on that experience. I'm in the "if it sounds good, it is good" camp, and will use what needs to be used to get the desired sound. In that context, and with appropriate caveats, hifi VCR is an option worth considering.

foosnark · Post by **foosnark** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:06 pm

haydxn wrote:the tape is made artificially 'wider' yet by running the signal in diagonal strips along the tape with a spinning head!

Thus the term "striping" for recording null video to a tape to write out SMPTE timecode, in preparation for editing.

bugs · Post by **bugs** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:42 pm

That analogue tape warmth that people rave about is actually distortion which can be introduced at any time if you so desire sans tape hiss. Vintage Warmer does a particularly good job at it, but there are many others that simulate analogue tape shortcomings. If you want an especially bad, noise laden sound, you can use iZotope's Trash. I like a little warmth myself.

Maybe a cheap alternative to a tape sound?