Hi evrybody,
I'm trying hopelessly to mix a midi tune to a wav sample, but compared to the sample the midi tune is so lifeless, so clean...
Does any know what to do ?
lionel
midi vs sample
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- KVRian
- 604 posts since 7 Jul, 2004 from Somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd dimensions.
MIDIs only ever sound as good as the MIDI synthesiser you're playing them through.
Try demo'ing a software wavetable such as the Virtual Sound Canvas, just resist the temptation to drown the output in reverb.
Try demo'ing a software wavetable such as the Virtual Sound Canvas, just resist the temptation to drown the output in reverb.
Analogue or digital – which is better? There's only one way to find out... FI-I-IGHT!!!
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- KVRAF
- 7412 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
Yes, it's a little facile to blame "MIDI" for how a song sounds.
If the MIDI data is being sent to a dull synth, then it's going to sound dull. Compare and contrast for example, Geoff Khan's thrashblues guitar soundfont with the dullness of the sounds generally built in to GM samplesets. Similar comparisons can be made for most instruments. It's very important to pick sounds that fit with the mood you're trying to get across. And don't feel constrained to stick with the GM settings - substitute if it makes things better.
If the MIDI data has been hard-quantised, and the song calls for feeling, then that's going to hurt, too. This can happen when the notes have been hand-edited in without any concern or when a live performance has been quantised too far. So, you could look to humanize the MIDI file, too.
If the MIDI data is being sent to a dull synth, then it's going to sound dull. Compare and contrast for example, Geoff Khan's thrashblues guitar soundfont with the dullness of the sounds generally built in to GM samplesets. Similar comparisons can be made for most instruments. It's very important to pick sounds that fit with the mood you're trying to get across. And don't feel constrained to stick with the GM settings - substitute if it makes things better.
If the MIDI data has been hard-quantised, and the song calls for feeling, then that's going to hurt, too. This can happen when the notes have been hand-edited in without any concern or when a live performance has been quantised too far. So, you could look to humanize the MIDI file, too.
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- KVRAF
- 1981 posts since 26 Oct, 2003 from Toronto
Yeah, MIDI TG's and Synth's are tough. Many times a tune may have a great VL Sax line that sounds like Stan Getz come back to life - but then the other backing music is lamer than a smoke-free karoake bar on a Monday night. 
Or, you get the reverb and chorus just right for the strings and brass - but then the drums sound flat on their own. Yada-Yada.
I think the best, and maybe ONLY way is to send the tracks through as many unique Insert Effects and Sends as you can. Back in my MIDI days with SY77's and MU100's - I would SOLO each track, and run the outputs through effects racks, guitar pedals, mixer strips and record it onto Track 1 of a 4trk MD recorder synced with my sequencer. Then I'd SOLO Track 2, and run it through different effects till I got it just right, and record it, and so on.
Then you have to look at the 'bounce aspect'. I was doing 16 to 32 MIDI tracks down to 4 audio, and it isn't hard when you organise their groupings. BD Trk 1, SD Trk 2, HH 3, Toms/Cymbals 4 - mix these down after to 2 Stereo tracks. Bass and rythemic effects on 3 and 4, mix drums and rythem down to 2. Leads and melodies, 3 and 4 - all down to 2, and whatever else remains. It sounds like ALOT of work, and with 4 tracks - it is. BUT - you do wind up with something that sounds FAR from a bland old MIDI Sequence coming out of a Yamaha PortaTone in the end.
So nowadays with Cubase and Roland VS-2480's et al, it should be a little easier. But with MIDI files, you really have to concentrate on instrument by instrument to get a good song out of it. Sadly, Yamaha and Roland et al only give you 'basic effects' to spruce up a certain group or a single sound. But when you run the bass out to it's own compressor, a synth lead through a Boss distortion, a cymbal through some light chorus - you'll be amazed how much more your sequence comes to life.
Put on your overalls - you got some work to do!
Or, you get the reverb and chorus just right for the strings and brass - but then the drums sound flat on their own. Yada-Yada. I think the best, and maybe ONLY way is to send the tracks through as many unique Insert Effects and Sends as you can. Back in my MIDI days with SY77's and MU100's - I would SOLO each track, and run the outputs through effects racks, guitar pedals, mixer strips and record it onto Track 1 of a 4trk MD recorder synced with my sequencer. Then I'd SOLO Track 2, and run it through different effects till I got it just right, and record it, and so on.
Then you have to look at the 'bounce aspect'. I was doing 16 to 32 MIDI tracks down to 4 audio, and it isn't hard when you organise their groupings. BD Trk 1, SD Trk 2, HH 3, Toms/Cymbals 4 - mix these down after to 2 Stereo tracks. Bass and rythemic effects on 3 and 4, mix drums and rythem down to 2. Leads and melodies, 3 and 4 - all down to 2, and whatever else remains. It sounds like ALOT of work, and with 4 tracks - it is.
BUT - you do wind up with something that sounds FAR from a bland old MIDI Sequence coming out of a Yamaha PortaTone in the end.So nowadays with Cubase and Roland VS-2480's et al, it should be a little easier. But with MIDI files, you really have to concentrate on instrument by instrument to get a good song out of it. Sadly, Yamaha and Roland et al only give you 'basic effects' to spruce up a certain group or a single sound. But when you run the bass out to it's own compressor, a synth lead through a Boss distortion, a cymbal through some light chorus - you'll be amazed how much more your sequence comes to life.
Put on your overalls - you got some work to do!
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 18 posts since 1 Jun, 2004 from paris
Thanks for your replies,
in fact I'm using the shepered
(http://www.simple-media.co.uk/music/vst ... htm#vocone)
witch does a marvelous wisteling sound. I don't want to change, I want to find a way to use it...
I've tried izotope vinyl and it't much better but that's not sufficient. I've read that some musicians send their midi tune threw a guitare amp. and record it back in the computer but I don't have any guit amp !
I thougth may be I could do it with a plugin... but witch one ?
Any other ideas ?
lionel
in fact I'm using the shepered
(http://www.simple-media.co.uk/music/vst ... htm#vocone)
witch does a marvelous wisteling sound. I don't want to change, I want to find a way to use it...
I've tried izotope vinyl and it't much better but that's not sufficient. I've read that some musicians send their midi tune threw a guitare amp. and record it back in the computer but I don't have any guit amp !
I thougth may be I could do it with a plugin... but witch one ?
Any other ideas ?
lionel
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- KVRist
- 339 posts since 16 Aug, 2004
I'm not sure if i understand this right, but personally i always advise to stay away from effects as long as possible; imo you better don't use them for masking, and i only use them if i have a specific goal.Steven West wrote:I think the best, and maybe ONLY way is to send the tracks through as many unique Insert Effects and Sends as you can.
Then again, i don't see how using effects could make a midi roll more lively, so maybe i just have the wrong idea...
Anyway, i try to record my midi parts instead of drawing them; as i have a touch sensitive keyboard, that already makes a big difference; if you assign some modulation parameters to the note on velocity (such as shorter attack time for higher note on, slightly higher cutoff for higher note on), it is possible to recreate quite a natural feel- if you do it right, and i must say i often don't
. And the same holds for aftertouch...regards,
p
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- KVRAF
- 6937 posts since 4 Jun, 2004 from Utrecht, Holland
Do I understand correct, you have an existing piece of music (the sample) and a midi/VST version which you want to sound the same? If the original includes acoustic instruments then it will be extremely difficult to emulate.
The secret in sounding lively is often in playing lively. Little timing mistakes, nuances in velocity, aftertouch, a bit of pitch bend & modulation, everything you possibly can do. Listen very carefully to details in the original, what do you hear? And how can you recreate that?
There is a lot of work involved, because you have to do what they did originally in the professional studio:
* pick instruments that fit best for each track
* record the instrument parts (note info + other controllers)
* pick effects (EQ!, reverbs, delays, compression, anything) that fit best to each track
* set volumes and EQ, apply effects to each track to taste
* tweak till you drop with everything, concentrate on each track that does not sound right. try weather different plugins work better.
* "mastering" the final mix which is an art on its own.
Applying a lo-fi effect like Vinyl to the complete mix is not something I would recommend. Try to fix the individual tracks first. EQ and compression and using them correct are probably the secret weapons you are looking for.
Good luck...
The secret in sounding lively is often in playing lively. Little timing mistakes, nuances in velocity, aftertouch, a bit of pitch bend & modulation, everything you possibly can do. Listen very carefully to details in the original, what do you hear? And how can you recreate that?
There is a lot of work involved, because you have to do what they did originally in the professional studio:
* pick instruments that fit best for each track
* record the instrument parts (note info + other controllers)
* pick effects (EQ!, reverbs, delays, compression, anything) that fit best to each track
* set volumes and EQ, apply effects to each track to taste
* tweak till you drop with everything, concentrate on each track that does not sound right. try weather different plugins work better.
* "mastering" the final mix which is an art on its own.
Applying a lo-fi effect like Vinyl to the complete mix is not something I would recommend. Try to fix the individual tracks first. EQ and compression and using them correct are probably the secret weapons you are looking for.
Good luck...