REVISED: FR: I find myself wanting LFO's and a Mod

[kodama]

Ok, after playing with Rhino a little more, getting into its groove, and talking with Tick,and thinking on what would perfect Rhino's existing features while obtaining similar results to what I was asking for, I am swapping my original requests for these:

1. Realtime envelope stretching (like from a knob)

2. An envelope for each user slider.

Well, what do you guys think?






Tick, Daniel, and Tim make some patches with Rhino.

But, when I'm making patches I find myself wanting LFO's and a Mod Assignment Matrix.

Oh, and until Ableton ever gets around to implementing internal midi routing instead of making (lackluster overpriced proprietary ) instruments, I have to beg every developer for a sweet arp

[Big Tick]

You don't need LFO's when you have Rhino envelopes
As for arps, well, what about giving Energy XT a try ?

'Tick

[kodama]

Thanks for the reply Tick!

I know *technically* you don't *need* them, but I still do!

I have other synths that have complex envelopes and LFOs, and I use the LFOs often in conjunction with the envelopes.

I'll deal with the arp thing, I actually own EXT.

Like I said it's actually Ableton's fault.

Also, any comment on the Mod Assignment Matrix?

[Big Tick]

Also, any comment on the Mod Assignment Matrix?

What would that do ?
'Tick

[kodama]

A matrix to assign a certain amount of modulator (like an lfo or envelope) to a source (like global pan) , like Cronox, Wusik, Zebra, Crystal, etc...

[Big Tick]

It sort of works the other way around in Rhino: modulations are hardwired, but there are so many of them it's unlikely you couldn't make what you want.
'Tick

[kodama]

I don't know, you could be right on the Matrix.

I definitely DO miss LFOs though, I always use them in conjunction with the complex envelopes in that other orange/lemon synth made by that guy that rhymes with bowl who's wraith I don't want to invite upon the Big Tick forum

[kodama]

Ok, after playing with Rhino a little more, getting into its groove, and talking with Tick,and thinking on what would perfect Rhino's existing features while obtaining similar results to what I was asking for, I am swapping my original requests for these:

1. Realtime envelope stretching (like from a knob)

2. An envelope for each user slider.

Well, what do you guys think?

[Big Tick]

1. That's feasible.
2. So you don't think Rhino uses too much cpu like that ?

'Tick

[kodama]

1. That's feasible.
2. So you don't think Rhino uses too much cpu like that ?

I think both of these would be lots of fun!

Would it use extra cpu just by having the 6 envelopes there, or would envelopes that modulate several cpu-intensive items take too much cpu?

If it's the second one, I think the wicked morphing, etc.. would be worth extra cpu sometimes, and I would be fine making my own patches knowing that it's an area to look out for as far as cpu.

[Big Tick]

What about using midi automation instead ?
'Tick

[kodama]

Well I guess that could be said of any envelopes or lfos in any synth.

But these features I think would integrate well within and enhance Rhino 3

Would it use extra cpu just by having the 6 envelopes there, or would envelopes that modulate several cpu-intensive items take too much cpu?

BTW - which was it?

[daniel]

Almost everything that can be tied to the user sliders is controlled by an envelope, anyways. To do what you describe simply copy and paste the desired envelope shape to the appropriate envelope. Done!

What you are suggesting kind of negates the purpose of the user sliders in the first place; real time control. Yeah, cool idea. But, there are two work arounds available and the extra CPU load might not be acceptable to the other couple of hundred users.

Try the copy/paste method and the MIDI automation method and let us know which was better. Maybe your experience in this area will enable other Rhino users to facilitate a new method of control and programming.

[kodama]

I will look into it, but I think these same arguements could be used to say that a synth should never have to have more than just ADSRs, complex envelopes can be made in the host.

Well in real life we know it's so different to have envelopes integrated and firing off each time you hit a key or hit several keys in poly and can save it with your patch, etc..

As far as CPU, if the features don't take CPU unless used, I don't think it's an issue for the hundreds of people

Like I said though, I will try it out and let you guys know.

Thanks!

[Big Tick]

I will look into it, but I think these same arguements could be used to say that a synth should never have to have more than just ADSRs, complex envelopes can be made in the host.

There's another problem. There's a subtle difference between an envelope to automate a slider controlling cutoff, and the cutoff envelope. It's hard to explain, but the envelopes you want would have to be global (not per note) and retrigged on every note, while the cutoff envelope is a per-note one.

As far as CPU, if the features don't take CPU unless used, I don't think it's an issue for the hundreds of people

Even though it's hard to believe, unused features take cpu too. Just have a look in the dsp development forum, some code like:

Code: Select all

if (envelope_is_used) {
   costly_call_to_process_envelope();
}

will cost cpu even if the envelope is not used, simply because of the branching.

'Tick