Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[herodotus]

I am curious, because making drum loops is just about the only musical activity of mine that has any contemporary relevance.

I have two bands, one grungy, one jammy, both horribly out of date.

I write semi-classical music, prog-metal, and weird polyrhythic stuff. All have been received with admiration ("wow,that's cool...") without enthusiasm ("...but it really isn't my kind of thing.")

I'm not bitching. I have fun, I can make my floors shake, and sometimes one of my bands even draws a crowd. But I don't want to become a dinosaur either.

And so, in an effort to preserve myself while staying relevant, I have taken to making live drum loops. This isn't high art, but it makes me feel more connected somehow. Plus, finding a 2 second chunk of music that repeats well is more of a challenge than I had thought.

But now I am finding that those who use drum loops are treated with contempt by those who don't. Kind of like cover bands are regarded by original bands.

And I really don't understand. I mean, songwriters rarely write drum parts. In most bands, the drummer writes his or her own part. And they are not even given songwriting credits!!

But in electronica, you are supposed to write everything, lest you suffer the contempt of your peers. Why? What if a song sounds better with a live drum loop than a sequenced one? Do you spend hours trying to duplicate the live loop with a sampler? If so, again, why?

I am just curious. I am not from the culture of electronica, and your world is new to me. I am just trying to understand it.

Thanks

[vurt]

i think its when people rely on only premade loops.here im sure you can see the lack of creativity if i just add a 120 bpm drum loop to a bass loop and a synth loop is it my own work?
if however im a bit pants at creating beats and everything else is fine then i use some loops in my composition to enhance what i already have

see the diff?

[shamann]

Well, it mostly boils down to 'try explaining any form of snobbery or social exclusion?' These kinds of class struggles are based less on the matter at hand and more on the social benefits of snobbery. Hard to keep an equal down. Much easier when you have some form of social mechanism that states you're higher up.

I think those who suggest loop users aren't as good as the from-scratchers do so because to accept otherwise threatens the validity/importance of their skills they've invested so much weight in. "Well if that's all it takes, anyone could make music! What I do takes so much more effort and of course is better." Yeah, sure, whatever.

Too many folk are caught up in identifying what's quality, but it's never for the better of the art. It's more a way of self-aggrandizement, dirty place to be if you ask me. There was a thread here a while back where a debate broke out over whether DJs could be considered musicians. In my eyes, you take someone like a DJ Shadow, that's as much a musician as Steve Vai. But the "Exclusive club" crowd would have none of it.

Music is at the people, not of, remember?

[Lawnmower Of The Damned]

I don't see the problem if you are creating your own loops. I don't even see a problem with buying a loop library and slicing it up and making your own loops out of it. However, I do tend to think that it's a bit creatively dishonest to use unaltered, premade loops as the main part of a composition.

These days it seems that there are more premade loop users than original loop makers. As such, loops in general have gotten a bad reputation as a crutch for the musically illiterate. As far as premade loops go, I'd say that statement has an air of accuracy to it. However, it's very much undeserved for those who build their own loops.

***EDIT***
And just for clarification, this is coming from a musician who plays guitar, bass and drums. I personally don't use loops, and don't even really use synths that much. Still, let it be known that not all of us are anti-electronic.
***END EDIT***

[Kriminal]

Its cheating init


I think most ppl who use loops actually slice and dice em anyway, or mangle them so they sound nothing like the original. Im not adverso to doing that myself, and i even use a basic old skool loop sometimes to add a little something to a track. Not in yer face, but just bubbling under to fill the groove out. Depends on the type of track tho.


I like to use loops with loads FX, like lo-fi or some other kinda filter, so its not so much a drumloop, but a noise loop.

Anyway, i say if it sounds good use it, f**k what everyone else says...





but it is cheating

[nuffink]

Musos are snobs.
Can't hack species counterpoint?
Fugue a bit foggy?
No problem. If you can knock up a lame drumbeat you can still look down on the loopers.

[tuz]

I started music with mixman (if anybody knows it) and all I used was loops. then I found fruity loops and started using loops on that. then I started using loops and the native fruity plugins. then I found out there was a website called kvr. then I found out what the hell a vst was. I believe it was less than a year ago. I choose not to use loops unless I played an instrument and recorded it and stuff. not that I can play anything that well. I made it a personal policy not to use loops. gives me more satisfaction. I feel like I have achieved something. not that I really achieved anything but still. I'm truly satisfied if I can call something truly my own.

[3*s]

What some people tend to not realise is regardless of how good your multisampled drum or guitar library is, and regardless of your programming skill, it's not going to sound as good as a real drummer. The exact feel of each hit from a good drummer will depend entirely on what he's playing, rhythmically and stylistically. If I had a soundproof recording room with countless mics and kits, as well as some guy who's fluent in all different drumming styles who'll sit there all day untill I say "play this," I'd write my own acoustic parts and feed them to him. Since I don't have that luxury, I'm limited to loop slicing for the most part. Multisamples work for some styles, some pop or popier rock for instance, and they dont for others like funk or harder rock.

[The Chase]

There's nothing wrong with using loops if you have proven yourself to make good drum loops or simply be a good producer in other areas.

No one is good at EVERYTHING.

[herodotus]

I don't see the problem if you are creating your own loops. I don't even see a problem with buying a loop library and slicing it up and making your own loops out of it. However, I do tend to think that it's a bit creatively dishonest to use unaltered, premade loops as the main part of a composition.

So was Jimmy Page being musically dishonest when Zep made "When the Levee Breaks"? He didn't write the drum part, And the drum part is most definitely the main part of the song.

What I am getting at is how is using loops different than using a real drummer? In both cases, someone else is writing the drum part. If the resulting song is lame, than it's lame. But what does who wrote and played the drum part have to do with it?

[nuffink]

What some people tend to not realise is regardless of how good your multisampled drum or guitar library is, and regardless of your programming skill, it's not going to sound as good as a real drummer. The exact feel of each hit from a good drummer will depend entirely on what he's playing, rhythmically and stylistically. If I had a soundproof recording room with countless mics and kits, as well as some guy who's fluent in all different drumming styles who'll sit there all day untill I say "play this," I'd write my own acoustic parts and feed them to him. Since I don't have that luxury, I'm limited to loop slicing for the most part. Multisamples work for some styles, some pop or popier rock for instance, and they dont for others like funk or harder rock.

Yeah right. Most drummers are shit.

[herodotus]

I started music with mixman (if anybody knows it) and all I used was loops. then I found fruity loops and started using loops on that. then I started using loops and the native fruity plugins. then I found out there was a website called kvr. then I found out what the hell a vst was. I believe it was less than a year ago. I choose not to use loops unless I played an instrument and recorded it and stuff. not that I can play anything that well. I made it a personal policy not to use loops. gives me more satisfaction. I feel like I have achieved something. not that I really achieved anything but still. I'm truly satisfied if I can call something truly my own.

Now this I can understand.

[pHz]

loops are cool ...

slainte rob

[3*s]

What some people tend to not realise is regardless of how good your multisampled drum or guitar library is, and regardless of your programming skill, it's not going to sound as good as a real drummer. The exact feel of each hit from a good drummer will depend entirely on what he's playing, rhythmically and stylistically. If I had a soundproof recording room with countless mics and kits, as well as some guy who's fluent in all different drumming styles who'll sit there all day untill I say "play this," I'd write my own acoustic parts and feed them to him. Since I don't have that luxury, I'm limited to loop slicing for the most part. Multisamples work for some styles, some pop or popier rock for instance, and they dont for others like funk or harder rock.

Yeah right. Most drummers are shit.

Define "shit" in terms of drummers.

[nuffink]

What some people tend to not realise is regardless of how good your multisampled drum or guitar library is, and regardless of your programming skill, it's not going to sound as good as a real drummer. The exact feel of each hit from a good drummer will depend entirely on what he's playing, rhythmically and stylistically. If I had a soundproof recording room with countless mics and kits, as well as some guy who's fluent in all different drumming styles who'll sit there all day untill I say "play this," I'd write my own acoustic parts and feed them to him. Since I don't have that luxury, I'm limited to loop slicing for the most part. Multisamples work for some styles, some pop or popier rock for instance, and they dont for others like funk or harder rock.

Yeah right. Most drummers are shit.

Define "shit" in terms of drummers.

No funk no swing no taste no discretion no timing no musical ability whatsoever no transport no drugs no personality no f**king use at all.

Ring any bells?