Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[IIRs]

The very first tunes I wrote on my own in my project studio (which I originally started up to record my band) were done with nothing more than a Roland VS-880, a Jen SX1000, my guitar, and an unbelievably crap bass guitar. The only beats I could use were loops lifted off a CD (and laboriously edited in time).

I mainly remember being frustrated as hell at having no easy way to create a simple fill, or slight variation on the beat.

Then I started sequencing my own beats from an Atari, first with a borrowed Alesis D4 drum module, then with a borrowed S950 sampler, then I eventually got myself a Yamaha A3000 of my own.. I found I was really struggling to create good grooves just by programming MIDI with single hits.. the problem was, curing it by using a prefab loop really did now feel like cheating to hide my own deficiencies.

These days I either program my beats, use loops I made or recorded myself, or a mixture of both, and there is no question that maybe all the magic of the track might come from someone elses work.

Not to say that I despise people who use loops, just that I have extra respect for people who are capable of making everything from scratch..

[3*s]

No funk no swing no taste no discretion no timing no musical ability whatsoever no transport no drugs no personality no f**king use at all.

Ring any bells?

Some drummers are like that and some aren't, so find a good sound source. Classic breaks or something like Planet of the breaks if you want funkier stuff thats not as played out.

I'm not sure if your point is simply "most drummers suck," or that you could sound better than a mediocre processed loop with multisamples.

[herodotus]

No funk no swing no taste no discretion no timing no musical ability whatsoever no transport no drugs no personality no f**king use at all.

Ring any bells?

I have been trying to get out from behind the drum set for years. You have here stated EXACTLY the reasons I have been unable to do so.

Bastards!

I hate all drummers.... Oh, except for me of course.

[Kriminal]

Yeah right. Most drummers are shit.

Define "shit" in terms of drummers.

No funk no swing no taste no discretion no timing no musical ability whatsoever no transport no drugs no personality no f**king use at all.

Ring any bells?

I know him.

[nuffink]

Some drummers are like that and some aren't, so find a good sound source.

Really? How does that tie in with your blanket statement...

What some people tend to not realise is regardless of how good your multisampled drum or guitar library is, and regardless of your programming skill, it's not going to sound as good as a real drummer.

Most drummers aren't Tony Williams. Most aren't Clyde Stubblefield. Most are shit.

[Lawnmower Of The Damned]

Herodotus:

So was Jimmy Page being musically dishonest when Zep made "When the Levee Breaks"? He didn't write the drum part, And the drum part is most definitely the main part of the song.

Their drummer is a band member, which means that the stuff he creates is a part of their creativity. A much better arguement would have been about big bands using session players.

Many musicians use session players. Most everyone does it. For example, let's say a rock band by the name of Harry Growth and the Pimple-f**kers are recording a new album.

Harry has decided that he wants an acoustic guitar ballad, as he figures those are the best songs to get drunk girls to show up at concerts with. Problem is, the guitarist can't play an acoustic very well.

The guitarists reading this know what I mean. The fretboard on an acoustic is completely different from an electric.

So they call in a session player, who listens to what they want, records a song, collects his fee and walks away.

He may or may not get his name in the credits. It all depends on how egotistical the guitarist is. The session guitarist will probably be fine with it either way, as he'll probably get a nice raise for shutting up about it.

The same thing happens with drummers, bassists and keyboardists. Hell, it's probably even happened with vocalists. The point is that you can never be completely sure who you are listening to.

So, have Harry Growth and his Pimple-f**king friends commited the grave musical sin of creative dishonesty by having a total stranger write a large part of a song?

I'd say yes. I believe that they have. If their guitarist can't play an acoustic then they need to either dump the idea, or find a new guitarist.

[3*s]

Some drummers are like that and some aren't, so find a good sound source.

Really? How does that tie in with your blanket statement...

What some people tend to not realise is regardless of how good your multisampled drum or guitar library is, and regardless of your programming skill, it's not going to sound as good as a real drummer.

Most drummers aren't Tony Williams. Most aren't Clyde Stubblefield. Most are shit.

My thesis was:

"What some people tend to not realise is regardless of how good your multisampled drum or guitar library is, and regardless of your programming skill, it's not going to sound as good as a real drummer."

Obviously by that I meant a good drummer. I'm not gonna say I'd rather use a recording of funk beats from a 14 year old punkrock drummer who's been playing for 6 months. My response was to clarify that. I'm guessing your definition of good is "how close the drummer is to Clyde Stubblefield stylistically." Clyde sounds awesome, but there are more sounds out there than funky drummer.

What sounds good to someone is what they're used to. If random offbeat notes were what you listened to for most of your life, thats probably what you would define as good.

[Rozzer]

...but it is cheating

Aw bollocks

Everythings fair game as long as you give it some loving

[Jafo]

I think I'll experiment with exact repetition, and see how it works out.

[Jafo]

I think I'll experiment with exact repetition, and see how it works out.

[shamann]

You know, if you had substituted drumloops for synth presets, you would have gotten much the same response.

Often the answer is that readymades are cheating. But cheating what? It's not like you're trying to pass your bar exam or anything. Who are these arbiters of authenticity when it comes to music and how do I get that gig? Sounds like a sweet deal. 'Nope, you suck! Next.'

If a 12 year old kid comes up with the exact same song as you by stringing together pre-fab loops in 30 minutes, while you took two months to come up with the same end result by scratch, is anyone really going to give a damn at the end? Same song either way, but man I sure can hear your sweat on that mp3 over there.

There are all sorts of reasons not to use prefabs, whether it be that loops force you into one mold and make it difficult for you to break out, or that you as a musician are more interested in getting at the disciplined creation of music and prefer to challenge yourself. Fair enough, and at the end of the day, making your own offers you the most options as an artist.

But so what? No social rules come out of that inherently, and I see no justification of snobbery there.

[shamann]

[statement]

[ditto]

[IIRs]

If a 12 year old kid comes up with the exact same song as you by stringing together pre-fab loops in 30 minutes, while you took two months to come up with the same end result by scratch, is anyone really going to give a damn at the end? Same song either way, but man I sure can hear your sweat on that mp3 over there.

Point is, if you do it all yourself you will probably end up with something unique that could not be done by a 12 year-old with a bunch of loops..

[Jafo]

Sorry, too bored to repeat again. Maybe I need to ruin my memory with designer drugs.

[shamann]

Point is, if you do it all yourself you will probably end up with something unique that could not be done by a 12 year-old with a bunch of loops..

But it can go both ways. That 12 year-old kid might be using loops made by a field of virtuosi. Strings it together and states, "Please match this on all accords."