Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[intel]

to address the original question, though, people who obsess over process rather than result will always condescend those who utilize tools which they deem as "shortcuts". they typically refuse to acknowledge that a tool is nothing without the hands of a craftsman, and that a craftsman can utilize a vast number of tools in their trade. people who obsess over process see a very limited amount of methods that can be used to legitimately achieve the end result. anything outside of that methodology is scorned. it goes beyond loops, as well. in virtually every aspect of music (as well as other artforms), there are people who obsess over their particular process and refuse to acknowledge easier methods, and there are people who will experiment with any process to achieve a similar end-result.

one might wager that the reaction is intrinsic to human behavior, if one were prone to believing in such things. you can see the same reaction in plenty of situations that have nothing to do with music or art.

[Sascha Franck]

No matter how you put it, this thread is totally stupid.
You either get the job done (for yourself only or for someone else, doesn't matter at all), or you don't.
I allready said so, yeah, it's that easy.

Artistic freedom?!? Hah! Are you REALLY going to tell me more that 0.01% (or whatever percentage) of all people here at KVR even have the slightest clue about what this could be?

"How to do trance pads/synths?"
"How to get a proper Goa bass sound right?"
"Which snare for house tracks?"

Etc etc...

So much about artistic freedom. So much about loops too. Either you know how to handle each of those or you don't.

[experimental.crow]

to address the original question, though, people who obsess over process rather than result will always condescend those who utilize tools which they deem as "shortcuts". they typically refuse to acknowledge that a tool is nothing without the hands of a craftsman, and that a craftsman can utilize a vast number of tools in their trade. people who obsess over process see a very limited amount of methods that can be used to legitimately achieve the end result. anything outside of that methodology is scorned. it goes beyond loops, as well. in virtually every aspect of music (as well as other artforms), there are people who obsess over their particular process and refuse to acknowledge easier methods, and there are people who will experiment with any process to achieve a similar end-result.

one might wager that the reaction is intrinsic to human behavior, if one were prone to believing in such things. you can see the same reaction in plenty of situations that have nothing to do with music or art.

showin' off yer fancy 'book-larnin' , using all them big words ...
well i never ...

[Jafo]

Except for the debate about repetition.

Actually, looking back over the thread, you're really the only one making that argument. And it's flawed from the beginning. There's a long tradition of using repetition and ostinato techniques in music, as much if not more so than structural progression.

If you are attempting to reflect the notion of stasis/eternity in music, or developing ritual motifs based on trance mechanisms, or creating vocal rounds, and so on, repetition is essential. To say that tension and release is the only point of music is to say that progressive narrative is the only point of art. But you do so at the cost of excluding uncountable applications of art beyond the individualist concerns of the Austro-Germanic tradition. Your point is just one of many, maybe it's time to consider your position valid but not infallible.

You know, that's actually fairly sensible. I started this off with a nice pontification about how I value people over machines, creative work over theft, honest sweat over theft, but you make some good points. Thank you.

Still, I think there's something inherently dodgy about a music you have to do drugs to appreciate!

[intel]

showin' off yer fancy 'book-larnin' , using all them big words ...
well i never ...

no shit... I need a bottle of whiskey or something...

[shamann]

Still, I think there's something inherently dodgy about a music you have to do drugs to appreciate!

To throw off the stats slightly, I never partake in the drugs, yet enjoy repetitive music quite a bit. But much of my appreciation for repetition started with Japanese psychedelia, which often was intended to get you to higher place on its own.

[munchkin]

The drugs and music debate. Hmm...let me take a toke and think about that for awhile...

a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
h
h
h
h
h
h
h
h
!

...yeah, man...drugs and music...ritual...sex...bangin' drums...sex...ritual...wailing...chanting...sex...bangin' drums...has another toke...aaaaaaahhhh!

[mayan]

I mean -yeah- it strikes me that much of the great music of the world is based around repetition and is probably designed to stimulate various brain wave patterns (when ya talk about "trance" music listen to the Jajouka folk. Now that's "trance!!"). These world musicians may or may not be enhancing their brain waves pattern stimulation with various consciousness-expanders but if you wanna damn repetition you are going to be damning a significant portion of "world" music.

[Arglebargle]

I'd rather use a professional-sounding drum loop that enhances my music than write a shitty drum pattern that makes my music worse.

I have no problem with drumloops. I'm extremely pro-composition, and I like to write everything myself, but when it comes to drum patterns I'm clueless.

I'm not going to waste hours trying to come up with an original drum pattern that sounds like crap, when I could be putting that time to better compositional use.

People that think they are writing original drum patterns are deluding themselves. There's no original drum pattern nowadays... no matter what you write, some other drummer has done it.

[pHz]

People that think they are writing original drum patterns are deluding themselves. There's no original drum pattern nowadays... no matter what you write, some other drummer has done it.

fair enough until this point ...

... find some drummers who play my kind of drum parts and ill show you an eight-armed freak with no sense of rhythm whatsoever ...

slainte rob

[herodotus]

I'd rather use a professional-sounding drum loop that enhances my music than write a shitty drum pattern that makes my music worse.

I have no problem with drumloops. I'm extremely pro-composition, and I like to write everything myself, but when it comes to drum patterns I'm clueless.

I'm not going to waste hours trying to come up with an original drum pattern that sounds like crap, when I could be putting that time to better compositional use.

People that think they are writing original drum patterns are deluding themselves. There's no original drum pattern nowadays... no matter what you write, some other drummer has done it.

I often think this about pop music generally.

If you want "New" in the strictest sense, you should try Boulez or someone in that league. You probably won't like it much though. (These "you"s are rhetorical, of course.)

[Ackelito]

People that think they are writing original drum patterns are deluding themselves. There's no original drum pattern nowadays... no matter what you write, some other drummer has done it.

is it the patterns that are original or the sounds and combinations of them?

there are so many percussion instruments in this world, and things to bang angainst eachother that there are still many thing to explore and create...

im pretty sure there are patterns that no one has tried yet...

just try to drum with your fingers over the keyboard(the one we use to write with) and you will find out that there are endless combinations...

why restric your self to a drummers perspective when we have all these tools...

[Arglebargle]

I s'pose you could argue that there's a near-infinite amount of possible drum patterns, but how many of those weird unheard-of patterns are actually being used? If you listen to most drumming carefully, you'll notice many similar patterns and styles being used. You can change the feel of a drumloop just by speeding it up or slowing it down, so I don't really see the need to write something mindbogglingly different just for the sake of doing something original.

If I write a rock song, I'm not really picky about the nuances of the drum beats. I just want a cool pattern that sounds rock.

A few months ago I put together a short world music song using various percussive loops, and I think the result was great. It didn't sound "processed" at all, and the grooves were much better than I could have done on my own.



I've probably pissed off every drummer on this board. If so I apologize.

[The Chase]

No matter how you put it, this thread is totally stupid.
You either get the job done (for yourself only or for someone else, doesn't matter at all), or you don't.
I allready said so, yeah, it's that easy.

Artistic freedom?!? Hah! Are you REALLY going to tell me more that 0.01% (or whatever percentage) of all people here at KVR even have the slightest clue about what this could be?

"How to do trance pads/synths?"
"How to get a proper Goa bass sound right?"
"Which snare for house tracks?"

Etc etc...

So much about artistic freedom. So much about loops too. Either you know how to handle each of those or you don't.

I think that by this post and your signature, you deeply underestimate originallity of people (particularly KVRians) today. I have started a good dozen of seemingly retarded topics like that, including 2 trance lead ones and only have gotton awesome results, because KVRians are awesome.

In other news, I'm going to make a song with very stereotypical trance leads, goa bass, and a housey snare just so another one of these songs can be around to bother you (and yes, I'll throw some loops in there for the occasion).

But back to the subject, I've heard drum loops that have been tweaked enough to be considered more original than a simply-programmed set of TR-909 or TR-808 percussion (or the etcetera), and like I've mentioned earlier in this topic, I don't see anything wrong with using loops if you have already proved yourself in other areas (or even better - percussion).

[Doogle]

in MED Sound Studio

When I was first told this, I assumed he was using MED or OctaMED on an actual Amiga... I thought that was really impressive!

I find something like Supatrigga is no substitute for manual tracking or editing for complex rhythmic stuff

Totally... but one good thing with using Supatrigga is that I can have a random beat and lay stuff over it and then gradually program the drums manually once I have some kind of arrangment going. Not the way I've usually seen people do that kind of glitchy, mashed up music, but it seems to work for me.

Doogle