Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[The Chase]

you might as well just be a DJ. They get all the fame anyway.

Not one artist who is "just a DJ" has ever gotten famous. ALL of the famous ones do a bit of producing as well.

[Steven West]

I have no shame in using EVERYTHING that inpires me. Whether it's a lovely synth by Krakli, with a beat loop off a FM CD that grabs my nads - or a synth loop from Analog Solutions with a beat I spent 2 weeks hand crafting to make peoples asses shake. And yes, I've done songs that are nothing but loops - and songs that have no samples in them whatsoever.
To fault someone for just making beat loops that other people can use and be inspired by - is like faulting the bass player for just playing bass in the songs one writes for a band.

I just try to make what people might like - and keep making it however I can.

[SecondSkin]

this is going to be long.

About 6-8 years ago I was going to open a DJ/synth store in the metro Detroit area. The location I picked out happened to be next door to a drum store and my potential landlord required me to get the approval of the drum shop owner before I could move in. SO one day I walked in to talk to him about the possibility.

Since the two stores would have almost nothing in common (his shop didn't even sell electronic drums of any kind), I didn't expect a problem. In fact my store could potentially bring customers to his shop, as I had no interest in selling acoustic drums, or even djembes or tamborines.

Instead I got a huge lecture about how DJ's and electronic acts are not artists. Here was my reply:

Is photography art? (answer -- yes, of course) But the photogropher doesn't make his images. They are made by a machine. Is Ansel Adam less of an artist than Picasso or Jackson Pollock? Maybe less than Charles Shulz? No!!! Is DJ Shadow less of an artist than Tommy Lee? Of course not.

The camera is just the medium, the tool. The art is in the mind of the artist.

[Omniphonix]

you might as well just be a DJ. They get all the fame anyway.

Not one artist who is "just a DJ" has ever gotten famous. ALL of the famous ones do a bit of producing as well.

It might surprise you to know that many of the famous ones that have allegedly produced tracks really had someone else write/produce them and released them under their name. I'm not going to get into specifics because I have no interest in making enemies, but I have some very reliable information.

[Steven West]

Amen Second Skin!

And I wouldn't at all doubt it AudioFlux, it happens everywhere in the arts. But if it moves books, sells tickets, or presells units... Welcome to the hole that the spindle holds steady.

[TVD]

Are we talking about:

a)Music based on sample loops? Never used, not sure if I know how, I admit I feel a bit awkward about it and I want all my sounds coming from my mind/hands/gear. But that's me, nothing against, neverthless.

Or...?

b)Music based on loops (make my own): I use it all the time, that's the main reason why Muzys has such a great workflow for me. Neverthless I'm realizing it's a bit of a temptation to keep on going on the easy side and overuse loops, and that's why I'm trying now the energyXT demo: to change a bit my way of working (and also because I want audio).

At this point of the discussion, BOTH!!!

[TVD]

how long is a loop ???
slainte rob

2 to 4 bars.

how so ???

slainte rob

Actually, hink was right. A loop is a average 2 bars.

But I also know some songs (like "Sing A Simple Song" by Sly & The Family Stone) where a loop could be 4 bars.

Even with FLS & Orion, we can make a loop longer than 2 bars.

[shamann]

A loop is a average 2 bars.

I'm confused by this. What is this based on?

Isn't a loop something which is looped? 5 milliseconds looped is still a loop, no?

[Omniphonix]

Amen Second Skin!

And I wouldn't at all doubt it AudioFlux, it happens everywhere in the arts. But if it moves books, sells tickets, or presells units... Welcome to the hole that the spindle holds steady.

Yes, well, I suppose if I was a business man I would operate in the same fashion. It's just discouraging as a music lover and musician. I want to give credit where credit is due and receive it when it is due me. Not to mention, it seems everything about the music business is destructive to the art, but this is a discussion for a whole different thread.

Keeping on topic, I don't look down on others that want to create collections of loops for others. I look down on those who would build a track and call it their own that was built off of someone else's work. As I believe someone else stated in an earlier post, any wanker can stack loops in a sequncer. I just get the feeling that those who would choose to do so are more interested in getting famous and making money than creating a work of art.

Maybe this debate is too philosophical. Like democrats arguing with republicans or christians arguing with atheists...

[hjack]

...

probably most of the just pc/mac composers are doing a 5 men band job composing all drums, bass tracks, and so on... and it is for must of them quite fun or not or they do it because they just need to eat, poor littles... there are some who just want to play some guitars and they never even thought drum players/percurssionists to be musicians, but they feel that some kicks, snares and conguitas will fit well just to follow on its recordings, so why not to do it and use them? you avoid to work with more people.. even paying them!

[Omniphonix]

there are some who just want to play some guitars and they never even thought drum players/percurssionists to be musicians

I'd love to see them say that to my partner. Maybe it's different depending on the genre, but for the techno breaks we do, the percussion parts are at least 50% of the track's purpose. When I realized I wasn't very inclined when it came to percussion, I felt I had two options. I could either work at it and get better at writing drums, or find a partner that could do it well. When I stumbled upon the latter, I figured that was the way to go so I could concentrate on what I was good at. I never even thought using other people's loops was an option.

[TVD]

A loop is a average 2 bars.

I'm confused by this. What is this based on?

Isn't a loop something which is looped? 5 milliseconds looped is still a loop, no?

pHz's previous question want about the length of a loop. The average is 2 bars.

But you can make a loop stretch to 4 bars.

[hjack]

ok, its very ok indeed, the example you give reflects very well how you see the thing, tho, not wanting to convert you and try to make change your ideas, there's a business, the loops exist and they are here for sell, if i think i could do interesting things with them i'll do it and i'll ever mention the companies name if the subject will relate to.
from your way of facing the matter i can radically deduce that you've never used some birds or whatever kind of hardly reproduced natural sound.. birds may not be the best example tho... you shouldn't even use a computer or whatever kind of musical instrument since it wasn't you who created its components

[Omniphonix]

Well, now, hang on a second. My first post in this thread states my position on where I feel the line is. Using sounds you find in other places is fine, but other people's arrangements is a different story. Since musician's first started writing music, they were restricted to a certain set of sounds. Orchestral composers historically were restricted to the instruments available in an orchestra. A PC is a tool just like a guitar or a synthesizer. The line is crossed when another musician has composed an entire section of your song.

I'll agree, if you're a hobbyist playing guitar in your basement and want to jam along with a drummer you don't have, loops can be great to have around. If you try to sell this as your song, is that really entirely honest? If someone painted a picture of a mountain landscape and you painted a barn and some horses on it, does that make it your painting? It just seems too dodgy to me...

[ouroboros]

If someone painted a picture of a mountain landscape and you painted a barn and some horses on it, does that make it your painting? It just seems too dodgy to me...

Yes, because I bought the clip art package