Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[hjack]

Well, now, hang on a second.

it took time to get me laughing, but you did
i sometimes use loops, tho would never spent a p on a cd... quite easy to get and to put some ideas in practise, 'instantly'

[Lunch Money]

14 pages? No fuggin' way. So I'll likely repeat what's already been said, but I'll try to be brief:

-I use drum loops, but not other loops. Why? I can't drum. Drummers drum. I don't. I also do mostly 'real band' type of music (ie. not electronica) so I need that human feel. If I spent all my time programming human-sounding beats, I'd never get anything else accomplished, and while I enjoy the challenge of programming a human sounding beat, I'd rather be playing guitar, bass, or singing.

-That said, I can't seem able to find loops that match what I hear in my head sometimes. I just spent most of the night trying to find some country-ish stuff, and only Beta Monkey came close. I should have spent that time programming a beat.



I like the concept of MIDI loops. You start off with a foundation programmed or played by someone more talented with drums, but you still have complete freedom to modify them to suit your needs. Groove Monkee is quite cool for that! Try the demo beats with a proper GM kit and be impressed.

Greg

[Omniphonix]

Now that I can respect. Use loop libraries for inspiration. I sometimes do that with my partner. I'll hear somebody do something in a loop and I'll tell him "maybe you should try something like that sometime". Then what he comes back with is totally different from what I showed him, but you can tell how it was inspired from that.

Anyway, this debate could go on forever. I need to go to bed. Glad I could get you laughing...

[herodotus]

Well, now, hang on a second. My first post in this thread states my position on where I feel the line is. Using sounds you find in other places is fine, but other people's arrangements is a different story. Since musician's first started writing music, they were restricted to a certain set of sounds. Orchestral composers historically were restricted to the instruments available in an orchestra. A PC is a tool just like a guitar or a synthesizer. The line is crossed when another musician has composed an entire section of your song.

I'll agree, if you're a hobbyist playing guitar in your basement and want to jam along with a drummer you don't have, loops can be great to have around. If you try to sell this as your song, is that really entirely honest? If someone painted a picture of a mountain landscape and you painted a barn and some horses on it, does that make it your painting? It just seems too dodgy to me...

Again I ask: If using other peoples ideas and parts is 'dodgy' are all bands 'dodgy'?

If the concept of a band with members using each others ideas and parts is, on the other hand, legit, what makes using a pre-recorded loop not legit? That you never met the guy who made the loops? That you bought the loops with money? What makes the 'band-written-and-arranged' song superior? What makes this such a sacred process?

I think I get the general point: If you just put loops together that you bought or stole, you aren't really "worthy". I see this point, and agree with the sentiment behind it. But I am trying to get at a larger point.

Look at Literature: It is an ancient and respected art. Perhaps the most ancient and respected art. And its creators quote, refer to, and steal from their predecessors all the time. Nor is there shame in this unless the end product is boring. Of course one can steal too much...but the threshhold is way higher than in contemporary music.

Look at Charles Ives: One of the greatest creative musicians in American history: his music is SICK with quotations, and 'getting' them is a part of the experience. But no one who knew it could ever say that his music was unoriginal.

I just think.....I mean, damn, we're talking about 2 second chunks of music here....aren't we taking this stuff a little too seriously?

[Omniphonix]

Herodotus, I think you and I are looking at this from very different perspectives. My musical life revolves around electronic music genres (trance, jungle, breaks, house, etc.). Here, beats play a very important role in the song and in many cases will make or break a track. I think you come more from the traditional band genres where drums play more of a groove setting role without standing being the focal point of the song. It may be acceptable there, but I'm not sure I like the taste of it in electronic genres.

[pHz]

i STILL dont getg the length thing ...

slainte rob

[stefancrs]

i STILL dont getg the length thing ...

slainte rob

> 15 cm = ok
> 17 cm = they'll be pleased
> 20 cm = they'll be in awe
> 25 cm = scary

edit: not trying to diss the < 15 cm, I hope I didn't offend anyone.

[pHz]

too obvious ...

slainte rob

[pHz]

...

slainte rob

[stefancrs]

too obvious ...

slainte rob

Yeah, all this time it was right there in front of you and still you didn't see it. (anyone care to ask if it's due to <15?)

[munchkin]

i STILL dont getg the length thing ...

slainte rob

> 15 cm = ok
> 17 cm = they'll be pleased
> 20 cm = they'll be in awe
> 25 cm = scary

edit: not trying to diss the < 15 cm, I hope I didn't offend anyone.

I think this sums up, in a humourous, way the ludicrouness of those who try to put boundaries on music whether it is how long a loop should be or how many loops should be used in music to make it supposedly, 'authentic'.

For a musician making trance, like you Audioflux1, to look down on others who use loops is just hypocrisy. You are perpetuating the myth that there are so-called 'valid' types of music and anything that doesn't fall into that category is not worthy.

You'll find people here who consider trance a joke and you've just lent them ammunition. Snobbery in music is really about encouraging exclusivity and conservative practices.

We all have our musical preferences but having a preference doesn't require having a patronising attitude towards other musicians.

[nuffink]

"You'll never make proper music with that".

What's so depressing is not that every generation of bad musician says it, but that they think they're saying something unique.

[DwarfNebula]

at least there's no difference if i use a drum loop or mr 'wellknown songwriter' hires a session drummer and telling him to do this and that.

[Ian Stone]

Personally, if it works use it. Besides drumloops can be rearranged, mangled, beatmapped, ect. with several apps these days.

[DwarfNebula]

....Besides drumloops can be rearranged, mangled, beatmapped, ect. with several apps these days.

psshhh, dont tell the secrets