Fruity or Reason

[drez]

Reason 3 is the bee's knees. I'd put the combinator patches that I've tested up against anything on the market. Its that good.

I love Reason's sequencer. It does exactly what I need and is super easy. With the new Control options, you now can record automation from as many sources as you can twiddle at once and with the new browser, you can browse patches and it will change the modules to whatever is in the patch, so you just find all the lead sounds, and cycle through them. Let reason handle the modules. Killer setup.

The new effects offer amazing new possibilites. The combinator patches for effects are as amazing as the synth patches. The best part is that the CPU utilization is still lower than anything else you'll find! I've never had reason crash on me and I've used it for 3 years. You won't find a more stable application, period.

I would definitely check out the 3.0 demo when it becomes available. It should be out anytime, methinks.

[drez]

Instead, it seems thay created a standard that almost every host uses now...

Rewire.

That's not ignoring industry standards...its defining them.

That's only because they refused to support anyone elses standards, I watched companies cave in and reluctantly support Rewire, it's not a badge of honour...

Carb.

Is that why everybody stopped using Protools because they only supported TDM when that was the ONLY thing out there? Oh wait....nobody stopped using it. Steinberg built the VST "standard", so what gave THEM the right to do that. What's the difference between what Steinberg did and what the Prop's did with Rewire?

Most companies are implementing rewire because they know that they can integrate entire applications, not just plugins. Nobody else is doing that...if they are its proprietary. What else integrates with Steinbergs System Link? Zilch!

Reluctant nothing. Companies have embraced rewire because applications can sync up and transfer audio and midi perfectly. Ableton Live for Audio rewired to Reason for the rest is the perfect combination. Two separate companies that have awesome product integration because of rewire.

[BONES]

That's not ignoring industry standards...its defining them.

No, its using your clearly superior marketing budget to make everybody else play your game. Its arrogant [and I oughta know] and its putting yourself both before and above everybody, especially your users - "we don't care how much time and effort you have invested in learning your VST stuff, you'll do it our way if you want to be part of our big, comfy marketing hype." I say "f**k "EM!", and I mean it. If you wanna be taken in, be my guest.

[drez]

That's not ignoring industry standards...its defining them.

No, its using your clearly superior marketing budget to make everybody else play your game. Its arrogant [and I oughta know] and its putting yourself both before and above everybody, especially your users - "we don't care how much time and effort you have invested in learning your VST stuff, you'll do it our way if you want to be part of our big, comfy marketing hype." I say "f**k "EM!", and I mean it. If you wanna be taken in, be my guest.

The props don't have tons of money. They have said on their site that they are finally going to be able to add some more programmers to help get stuff out the door a bit quicker. I don't know if you realize this, but Rewire has been out for almost as long as VST. For that matter, it was created in a joint deal with Steinberg, the mother of VST. Cubase was the first application to support rewire! If they thought it was so "against their competing standard", then why did they openly embrace it?

[headquest]

As I understand it, the ReWire concept pre-dates VST, and STeinberg knew all about ReWire before they went all out on VST.

There is a real problem with plug in standards at present because across both Win/Mac platforms there actually is no standard. VST is popular in the consumer market of course, and the net is awash with very dodgy freebies (and some excellent ones) that you can snarl up your system with. But in the professional world RTAS and TDM are given far higher regard.

That is why the various developers are now working on one plug-in format to replace them all.

ReWire is at present the most universally accepted standard across the industry, and is now implemented in EVERY major host as well as several other pieces of software (such as Gigastudio, for example).

I know it pains you bones, but you can't change this one! Nor can you stop the iminent demise of VST once the new standard is out (about 2 - 3 years tops).

In the meantime, invest all you like in VST - we're not stopping you!

[TVD]

As I understand it, the ReWire concept pre-dates VST, and STeinberg knew all about ReWire before they went all out on VST.

There is a real problem with plug in standards at present because across both Win/Mac platforms there actually is no standard. VST is popular in the consumer market of course, and the net is awash with very dodgy freebies (and some excellent ones) that you can snarl up your system with. But in the professional world RTAS and TDM are given far higher regard.

That is why the various developers are now working on one plug-in format to replace them all.

ReWire is at present the most universally accepted standard across the industry, and is now implemented in EVERY major host as well as several other pieces of software (such as Gigastudio, for example).

So in other words, the music industry (not KVR or the underground music cultures) will have the final say on the new plugin standard? And that might mean no more VST or DX?

[drez]

Check out this press release from January 4th, 2001. This shows that Reason 1.0 was released, and from the article:

"Reason can link to most of the major sequencers (Cubase, Logic, Digital Performer) via ReWire, the fast growing industry standard, giving you the complete audio and midi power of your favourite program. This of course also allows you to continue working within the environment you are most familiar with and still have the sound power of Reason."

This shows that Rewire was implemented in 3 of the biggest sequencers of that day before Reason even hit the streets! If it was such a marketing hype, then why did the big guys support it before the props even have Reason out the door?

Because its a GOOD IDEA! And obviously, the gamble that Propellerheads took was a good one. Everybody supports it because there is nothing on the market that is better at what it does.

[drez]

Here's an even better one:

ReWire Available for All
January 28, 1999 -- Stockholm/Hamburg/Los Angeles - Propellerhead Software and Steinberg Soft- & Hardware today announced that the highly acclaimed ReWire protocol is made available for use by other manufacturers of digital audio products. This provides extremely exciting opportunities for audio software manufacturers to integrate applications on Mac and PC.

Its a freaking joint press release showing that both Steinberg AND Propellerheads brought this "rogue standard" to the world.

No, its using your clearly superior marketing budget to make everybody else play your game. Its arrogant [and I oughta know] and its putting yourself both before and above everybody, especially your users - "we don't care how much time and effort you have invested in learning your VST stuff, you'll do it our way if you want to be part of our big, comfy marketing hype." I say "f**k "EM!", and I mean it. If you wanna be taken in, be my guest.

What a bunch of uneducated FUD. You think that the Props had a shedload of cash to spend on Marketing in 1999? Yeah, right.

People beat down Rewire all the time, but they don't really know the history of the protocol at all. Do someone research, and you'll find its supported by the core DAW pioneers because it IS a standard that did and still does what no other application integration protocol can.

[Kriminal]

Hey, all the fanboys in the house say yooooooooooo

[x_bruce]

As mentione before, the best thing to do is try the demos. Yeah, that's a pain in the arse, but I believe there is a certain intangible magic between studioware and users.

My preferences would be, from best to not as useful:
LIVE 4. I use this al the time and if midi handling was a bit better it might be almost all the time. LIVE 4 does a great job loading VST instruments and has great timing. I have yet to make it sound stoupid, even with intentionally bad looping followed by using LIVE's tools to fix the intentionally bad loops.

I like Orion Platinum. It was the best work space for me and the first studio package I purchased. I still like it and think it's synths are quite good, on par with Reason and able to import VSTi and DXi which is important as some synths are not only DXi.

Next down is Reason 2.5. It took a long time to get into it's way of working. I must say though, I think the synths are damn good. Maelstrom is very creative and while Subtractor won't win any medals it's still quite capable. In terms of samples; this is where you update instrument sounds. Have a look around and you'll see hundreds of libraries for Reason's NN19XT sampler, which btw is a good sampler comparing to Kontakt, which is a great sampler.

Lastly, but certainly not bad, FruityLoops. I just don't like working in it's environment. There are lots of tutorials and a huge resource for users. In fact, that's one of the most impressive things I've seen. The Proppelerheads are nice guys and have an active site...and actively update for free until a new version comes out. Still, FL is free and getting the XXL version and Sytrus gives you a serious synth whith which to work. It too depends on it's sampler and the smaller, low CPU synths also part of the pack.

The way I see it, you should be able to use a soft studio out of the box and without another instrument. It's nice to have VST insruments but still, why did you buy it? To work in a good environment and feel comfortable.

I'd be on the lookout for Cakewalk's Project 5 2.0 due out in March. I'd wait unless it's a mission critical issue. I'd also give ACID 5 Pro a good look, it's far different from the buggy 4.x Pro. It also competes with Live 4's beat machenations although not in real time; otoh, the results are excellent and it's use of VST instruments and midi are near flawless.

So, I'd say wait and while waiting try some of the studios. I think Orion Platinum is a wonderful over-all studio and works well with other Rewire programs. With rgc:audo part of Cakewalk I'd really want to see if they unleash Rene on a strong synth, the one thing I felt was missing in 1.5. In terms of work flow it took me a bit of time to get into it, but it was near flawless once learned - took me about 2 weeks using it part time. 2 weeks doesn't seem that long to learn your major software program.

And lest any developers think I'm not being fair to their product, the truth is, I like them all in their own way. I work a certain way just as you and everyone else resonding here do. We can tell you our experiences and if we liked them, but that's something that one must experience on their own, preferably on their recording system.

They are all good. They all have good and bad points and beyond using the responses here as a small survey on what to consider, it would be foolish not to take advantage of the demos avaialable. Wait for Sonar, my gut reaction is there will be some pleasant surprises; simiilarly, wait until you can demo Reason 3. Definately try LIVE 4.1 it and ACID 5 should not be written off. Yeah, I'm bringing back the full field, but perhaps you might want to consider.

Though the youngest, LIVE has been an incredibly user friendly, made by musicians for musicians synth. I've spoken several times with the ACID crew, though Sony's name is on it it's still based in Madison Wi. and has many of the old employees.

The Cakewalk guys have the most experience which is why I say consider P5 2.0. Many of their updates are insanely generous in other products and they've had a great "bang for the buck" attitude since the early 1990s.

The Fruity team are around here and their site. They are nice guys; just don't do what I did and start arguments with Gol. That's the whole problem for me. I like and respect these guys that I actually feel bad when I try to select which is better. Who's to say? My way of working is the most important issue to me. If it were FL vs Reason, I couldn't honestly say, I haven't tried Reason 3 yet. I can say that I like the sequencer better in Reason and love Maelstrom and NN19XT, especially it's 3rd party support. But FL isn't designed to how I think, so how can I judge it fairly.

For that matter, who can be completely open, without using their bias. It's your biases that matter.

Best of luck!

[Wicker Man]

"The way I see it, you should be able to use a soft studio out of the box and without another instrument. "

I don't agree with that...the soft studio is merely a host...its far more interesting to find and assess your own instruments, free or otherwise. Fair enough you would probably expect a basic sampler and some effects to get you started.

[Sidhu]

But FL isn't designed to how I think, so how can I judge it fairly.

Exactly what I feel about Reason.

Sidhu

[Sidhu]

I am not sure I understand the VST implication vis-a-vis Rewire.

My understanding is that VST is an architecture on which host applets are based and plugs are written which can be incorporated into the host.

Rewire, on the other hand, implements interaction between two (or more) hosts.

I fail to see to see where the argument is.

educate me please.

Sidhu

[Sidhu]

there is another side to it. I cannot fish out enough, yet, to purchase Reason. While I can, at least for the Fruity Loops edition. (not producer maybe)

I do also feel more comfortable knowing that I can incorporate synths that are of importance to me into my workflow. And not be stuck with whats provided.

Which leads to another question. I can do all of the above with Tracktion too right ? so why do I need another host ? Well, Video is one. I do also get a sampler. Bt most of all, I think it's the pattern sequencer that intreasts me. I am very weak at making good drum patters. and nothing has assisted me much so far.


I also want to know, video is important to me, does FL integrate well with video ? Does the plugin allow scrub along with timeline (for sync and stuff) ?

thnaks again

Sidhu

[Sidhu]

Thank you all sop much for your help.

Ill like to elaborate a little now.

I am not into electronic music.

FL Studio, using the SoundFont player -

http://forum.e-officedirect.com/forum.e ... anfare.mp3

Carb.

Thats very impressive Carb. Im extremely curious to know what all SF's you were using.

im gonna listen that again!

Sidhu