Could someone please explain anti-loop snobbery?

[Hink]

I would love to hear your music...but your links only bring to some sappy game page and an outdated website that as far as I can tell doesn't have any of your music (atleast not that I saw on the first page)... What? You want to judge our music but affraid of us judging your's?

[Lunch Money]

as far as anyone's concerned, I'm probably just talking out of my ass anyway.

Mr. Nailhead, meet Mr. Hammer.

people that can play instruments over people who only know how to click a mouse.

You STILL have failed to address the people who use something like, say, drum loops as a replacement for a real drummer. Surely by at least auditioning and selecting the appropriate loops, that's a fair approximation of a producer saying to his drummer, "Nah, play it a little looser! You're too tight! OK, in measure 4, your fill needs to be a bit busier!"

Once that process is done, I'm still playing my guitar, butchering attempts at keyboard or programming them, playing bass, singing, and programming (yes, with mouse clicks) other instruments.

Surely you can see the musicianship inherent in such a process....

Greg

[stefancrs]

I would love to hear your music...but your links only bring to some sappy game page and an outdated website that as far as I can tell doesn't have any of your music (atleast not that I saw on the first page)... What? You want to judge our music but affraid of us judging your's?

I don't release crappy music.
The game page is because I work as a programmer at Digital Illusions.
The "cryonics" page actually has stuff with my music in, mainly all the later 64k demos which I've coded myself and made the music for using my own softsynth.

You can also hear my music from "tac2" if you search on www.back2roots.org

There will probably quite shortly be a remix I made released by a record label as well.

Granted, I haven't listened to your music hink, and I'm quite suprised you take my posts in this thread seriously.

[Funkadelic]

I noly read the first page so if what I'm about to say already has been said please exscuse me

A lot of (in my opinion) great artist samples. Drums, loops ect. Does it make 'em less "real"? I personal don't think so as long as they add a new dimension to whatever they loop. Take Dr. Dre. Every single hit he's ever had has been from some old loop. And Portishead. I love sour times, glory box ect and because of the way they stand out when using the samples i don't mind. But if all you do is take a drum loop and a sample then you're nothing but a theif..., in my humble opinion.


oh, i forgot to mention Dj Premier, the producer from Gangstarr..., uses samples in all his songs but what he does is cut em and rearrange to an even better track then the original.

[Hink]

I would love to hear your music...but your links only bring to some sappy game page and an outdated website that as far as I can tell doesn't have any of your music (atleast not that I saw on the first page)... What? You want to judge our music but affraid of us judging your's?

I don't release crappy music.
The game page is because I work as a programmer at Digital Illusions.
The "cryonics" page actually has stuff with my music in, mainly all the later 64k demos which I've coded myself and made the music for using my own softsynth.

You can also hear my music from "tac2" if you search on www.back2roots.org

There will probably quite shortly be a remix I made released by a record label as well.

Granted, I haven't listened to your music hink, and I'm quite suprised you take my posts in this thread seriously.

you didn't think I was gonna give up music did you? I mean I thought I was blatantly sarcastic. In a nutshell music has driven me since I can remember. It's been my best friend, my savior, it has brought me great pleasure. None of things will change whether or not someone likes my music. I still get the same kick today as I did 33 years ago when I got my first guitar that really is all that matters...but you know when you say you all suck...well I gotta have a poke at you...

[Lunatique]

as far as anyone's concerned, I'm probably just talking out of my ass anyway.

Mr. Nailhead, meet Mr. Hammer.

people that can play instruments over people who only know how to click a mouse.

You STILL have failed to address the people who use something like, say, drum loops as a replacement for a real drummer.

Hey, at least I make damn sure to stress the fact that it's only my own opinion, and that I respect those of others'.

Yeah, sure, using loops for certains things is fine, it's just as how an composer for a symphony might only know how to play the piano, but he's writing music for all the instruments in the orchestra. HOWEVER, he's actually composing and arranging every single part on his own--not borrowing a loop that someone else made, with everything worked out already. I think it's probably unreasonable to expect every single musician to be able to write great parts for every single instrument he's using in his piece, but that IS ideally what I think all composers should do. At least, those are the ones I respect. For example, I only play keyboard, drums, and guitar, but in my music I use lots of other instruments. I will listen to lots of music that contains those other instruments to understand their range and tone, and then write those instrument parts myself. I would never just use some pre-made loop played and recorded by someone else, because that to me, is not the same thing as writing your own music and instrument parts. I love arranging instruments and it's the greatest joy for me, so that's my personal preference.

It's for that same reason, I would never cut and paste a piece off of someone else's painting and put it in my own painting. That is basically theft, and in just about any other creative fields (writing, film, photography..etc), such acts will get your ass sued. It's strange how it's so different for music.

[nuffink]

Hey, at least I make damn sure to stress the fact that it's only my own opinion, and that I respect those of others'.

Yeah, sure, using loops for certains things is fine, it's just as how an composer for a symphony might only know how to play the piano, but he's writing music for all the instruments in the orchestra. HOWEVER, he's actually composing and arranging every single part on his own--not borrowing a loop that someone else made, with everything worked out already. I think it's probably unreasonable to expect every single musician to be able to write great parts for every single instrument he's using in his piece, but that IS ideally what I think all composers should do. At least, those are the ones I respect. For example, I only play keyboard, drums, and guitar, but in my music I use lots of other instruments. I will listen to lots of music that contains those other instruments to understand their range and tone, and then write those instrument parts myself. I would never just use some pre-made loop played and recorded by someone else, because that to me, is not the same thing as writing your own music and instrument parts. I love arranging instruments and it's the greatest joy for me, so that's my personal preference.

It's for that same reason, I would never cut and paste a piece off of someone else's painting and put it in my own painting. That is basically theft, and in just about any other creative fields (writing, film, photography..etc), such acts will get your ass sued. It's strange how it's so different for music.

[munchkin]

I would love to hear your music...but your links only bring to some sappy game page and an outdated website that as far as I can tell doesn't have any of your music (atleast not that I saw on the first page)... What? You want to judge our music but affraid of us judging your's?

No worrys, hink. I'm sure when we do hear his music it'll be nothing special. There is nothing usually groundbreaking about the games genre of music anyway.

We've seen it time and again on KVR, someone with a tiny bit of commercial success believing their own hype and looking down on others. Unfortunately for them, because they are so arrogant, they squander any potential they may have by alienating everyone around them.

If stefancrs is such an authority then why waste his time at KVR with 'losers' like us?

[munchkin]

Hey, at least I make damn sure to stress the fact that it's only my own opinion, and that I respect those of others'.

Yeah, sure, using loops for certains things is fine, it's just as how an composer for a symphony might only know how to play the piano, but he's writing music for all the instruments in the orchestra. HOWEVER, he's actually composing and arranging every single part on his own--not borrowing a loop that someone else made, with everything worked out already. I think it's probably unreasonable to expect every single musician to be able to write great parts for every single instrument he's using in his piece, but that IS ideally what I think all composers should do. At least, those are the ones I respect. For example, I only play keyboard, drums, and guitar, but in my music I use lots of other instruments. I will listen to lots of music that contains those other instruments to understand their range and tone, and then write those instrument parts myself. I would never just use some pre-made loop played and recorded by someone else, because that to me, is not the same thing as writing your own music and instrument parts. I love arranging instruments and it's the greatest joy for me, so that's my personal preference.

It's for that same reason, I would never cut and paste a piece off of someone else's painting and put it in my own painting. That is basically theft, and in just about any other creative fields (writing, film, photography..etc), such acts will get your ass sued. It's strange how it's so different for music.

Exactly!

[munchkin]

Hey, at least I make damn sure to stress the fact that it's only my own opinion, and that I respect those of others'.

Yeah, sure, using loops for certains things is fine, it's just as how an composer for a symphony might only know how to play the piano, but he's writing music for all the instruments in the orchestra. HOWEVER, he's actually composing and arranging every single part on his own--not borrowing a loop that someone else made, with everything worked out already. I think it's probably unreasonable to expect every single musician to be able to write great parts for every single instrument he's using in his piece, but that IS ideally what I think all composers should do. At least, those are the ones I respect. For example, I only play keyboard, drums, and guitar, but in my music I use lots of other instruments. I will listen to lots of music that contains those other instruments to understand their range and tone, and then write those instrument parts myself. I would never just use some pre-made loop played and recorded by someone else, because that to me, is not the same thing as writing your own music and instrument parts. I love arranging instruments and it's the greatest joy for me, so that's my personal preference.

It's for that same reason, I would never cut and paste a piece off of someone else's painting and put it in my own painting. That is basically theft, and in just about any other creative fields (writing, film, photography..etc), such acts will get your ass sued. It's strange how it's so different for music.

Exactly!

[munchkin]

Oops! Just repeated myself....how uncreative!

[stefancrs]

I would love to hear your music...but your links only bring to some sappy game page and an outdated website that as far as I can tell doesn't have any of your music (atleast not that I saw on the first page)... What? You want to judge our music but affraid of us judging your's?

No worrys, hink. I'm sure when we do hear his music it'll be nothing special. There is nothing usually groundbreaking about the games genre of music anyway.

We've seen it time and again on KVR, someone with a tiny bit of commercial success believing their own hype and looking down on others. Unfortunately for them, because they are so arrogant, they squander any potential they may have by alienating everyone around them.

If stefancrs is such an authority then why waste his time at KVR with 'losers' like us?

I don't do music for games Never did. And I did tell you where to find some music by me.

I guess it's about time to say that I wasn't serious when I said that basicly all art and music sucks. I really like lots of music I hear here in the music café. Written text is not the best place for sarcasm and irony, but I gave it a shot anyway

edit: never meant to come off as arrogant, I don't want to be considered another "jackle&hyde" here at kvr. I apologize.

[Hink]

Oops! Just repeated myself....how uncreative!

not really, you just replied in stereo...

[herodotus]

...he's actually composing and arranging every single part on his own--not borrowing a loop that someone else made, with everything worked out already. I think it's probably unreasonable to expect every single musician to be able to write great parts for every single instrument he's using in his piece, but that IS ideally what I think all composers should do. At least, those are the ones I respect. For example, I only play keyboard, drums, and guitar, but in my music I use lots of other instruments. I will listen to lots of music that contains those other instruments to understand their range and tone, and then write those instrument parts myself. I would never just use some pre-made loop played and recorded by someone else, because that to me, is not the same thing as writing your own music and instrument parts.

What I think you might be missing is that "Composer" types use a method that leaves a great deal of musical reality to whoever is playing and/or recording their music.

When Haydn wrote a violin part he didn't think in terms of a "particular violin tone with a high pass filter, with just so much reverb (not a spring, a PLATE style reverb), panned slightly to the left....."etcetera, etcetera. He just let those things take care of themselves (Only, of course, without the filters, reverbs and whatnot.) He could do this because he had a handy dandy ORCHESTRA at his disposal.

Alas, we today must do without this luxury and so must deal with the realities of instrumental tone ourselves. Now there are a great deal of wonderful instruments at our disposal. But we should note straight off that using these instruments involves a whole world of stuff that Haydn never even imagined. And because Live Music is so damn expensive, (Imagine the cost [e.g. musicians, conductor, instruments, hall rental] of a single performance of an average Haydn Symphony) , the idea of Audio recording becomes important, bringing with it all of its own inherent difficulties.

Perhaps one of the greatest of these difficulties is RECORDING A DRUMSET. "Writing" the opening drum part for "When the Levee Breaks" Would take about 30 seconds. Now go try to CAPTURE THAT SOUND, and call me back in a couple of years. If you ever COULD capture it, it would be because you spent years mastering skills that have almost nothing to do with "Writing" music as Haydn understood it.

Some people can't or don't want to go through all of this stuff. Problem is, Drums are the single most ubiquitous instruments in contemporary music. Going without them consigns one to musical marginalization (which is cool if you want that, just not necessary).

And some people don't want to spend hundreds of dollars and hours using midi and one hits to sound kinda-sorta-almost-not-totally-unlike a slightly better than average punk rock drummer.

And so they use loops.

[opiadream]

How many times have you listened to a song and thought to yourself, "Man, that guitar part is wicked!" or "That chord progression is pure genius!" or "Holy crap that's some really good drumming!" Let's say you meet the guy that made the song and compliment him on his talent and skill, and he tells you, "Oh, they're just pre-made loops I got off of a sample disc. I didn't play or write or arrange any of those parts, except throwing them in a sequencer and turning the mute/solo button on and off."

oy...and this is where I just couldn't resist re-joining this thread

on what fantasy island would a scenario like that occur?
do you honestly believe that it's possible to make a track out of pre-made loops whilst turning the mute button on and off and have it sound like something more than a bunch of loops going on and off?

maybe I'm taking crazy pills but I think if that awesome guitar riff kept repeating with no variance I would start to catch on that it was a loop.