Fruity or Reason

[tony tony chopper]

I think that hardware samplers were using loop points, while cue points were more made for broadcast or video markers. Anyway, they're very generic markers and work well as beat markers (Audition gave those a 'beat' identifier).
Those markers are also used by CD burners.

[drez]

So what application was USING these slice markers in wav files in 1990?

audio editors

..not for slicing, but as.. markers. They're generic markers, they weren't made to mark beat slices, but are perfect for that purpose.

And even if markers hadn't existed, they could have added them to the WAV format without problem. Of course, everyone would then have known, and it'd have potentially hurt their sales if competiting apps had started to use the same format.

Well, by that logic, then tape slicing predates everything

Having the capability to manually edit pieces of wave files together does not really compare to what Recycle did with Rex when it came out.

(proof that they work is that Audition & FL are using them for beat-slicing)

Yes, but when did they START doing wav beat-slicing? A long time after recycle was doing it. "Could have been done" hindsight is 20/20, but the fact is that beat-sliced wav files didn't come out until someone figured out how to do it in an application, and that was AFTER rex came out.

[tony tony chopper]

Having the capability to manually edit pieces of wave files together does not really compare to what Recycle did with Rex when it came out

no one is arguing on which app was the first to do beat slicing here. We're talking about the *format*.

Why didn't Recycle chose the wav (or AIFF) format instead of coming up with their own? Pure marketing, and nothing else. If you see another reason, enlighten us.

So the facts are:
-WAV is much older than REX
-WAV can fully contain a sliced loop, proof is that it now does, and this with more features than REX
-there's a REX 2 format, meaning that they still don't want to use an existing standard

I'm not even arguing about their motivation to protect their own format - it's their choice. But don't claim they want to set up a standard. When you want to create a standard, you expect others to support it, so you don't protect it. REX files can't be created by any app but Recycle. So is it a standard? No, but WAV is.

[drez]

Having the capability to manually edit pieces of wave files together does not really compare to what Recycle did with Rex when it came out

no one is arguing on which app was the first to do beat slicing here. We're talking about the *format*.

Why didn't Recycle chose the wav (or AIFF) format instead of coming up with their own? Pure marketing, and nothing else. If you see another reason, enlighten us.

Well, yes, it was definitely a way to get people to use their technology. They would license applications to use their format sot that they could make money to feed their families. What is wrong with that? If a company is willing to pay to use that format at the time, then why shouldn't the props sell it to them?

So the facts are:
-WAV is much older than REX

But beatslicing with WAV isn't

-WAV can fully contain a sliced loop, proof is that it now does, and this with more features than REX

But it didn't when Rex came out.

-there's a REX 2 format, meaning that they still don't want to use an existing standard

Because they improved their own design.

REX files can't be created by any app but Recycle. So is it a standard? No, but WAV is.

Wrong. From the Propellerheads site:

Propellerhead Software will issue licenses to companies in the audio or music industry interested in creating commercial REX applications.

There are no costs involved. Propellerhead Software will administer the authorization, copyrights, logos and trademarks. The company will also provide the licensee with technical support, free of charge.


What is the difference between this and the VST spec that is set forth by Steinberg? They are the keeper of the cheese on direction for VST, so what is wrong with the Props doing the same thing?

[BONES]

Having the capability to manually edit pieces of wave files together does not really compare to what Recycle did with Rex when it came out.

Its not like they invented beat-slicing. Wave-Surgeon was already around when ReCycle first appeared and cost $29 or something. Another instance of Propellerheads bigger marketing budget winning the day.

[braj]

I just tried the FL5 demo again and I still don't get it. It doesn't seem intuitive at all to me, and it did the worst thing a music app can do IMO - it crashed my computer. Not just crashing itself, but took the whole box down. That's something Reason has never done to me in the two or so years I've been using it.

I respect everyone that uses FL and enjoys it, but I'll take Reason's stability and straightforward design anyday over FL5.

Another + for Reason for me is it is cross-platform, so I can use my Powerbook to start a tune, then finish it up on my Windows DAW rewired to Live or Tracktion.

I finally figured out where I stand with FL: I don't want to get it. It just doesn't suit my sensibilities. But I figure there are people out there who it seems perfect in every way, and feel exactly the oposite about Reason.

[drez]

Having the capability to manually edit pieces of wave files together does not really compare to what Recycle did with Rex when it came out.

Its not like they invented beat-slicing. Wave-Surgeon was already around when ReCycle first appeared and cost $29 or something. Another instance of Propellerheads bigger marketing budget winning the day.

Bones, answer this simple question...

How in the world did they get a bigger marketing budget in 1994, when they just started out? How do you know that they had gobs of money to spend in 1994! The company was formaly announced 1 month before they released recycle. Did money fall out of the sky and say "market with me". They were 3 guys with an idea. They made good business deals with the right people at the time...Steinberg. That's just smart business.

[drez]

I just tried the FL5 demo again and I still don't get it. It doesn't seem intuitive at all to me, and it did the worst thing a music app can do IMO - it crashed my computer. Not just crashing itself, but took the whole box down. That's something Reason has never done to me in the two or so years I've been using it.

I respect everyone that uses FL and enjoys it, but I'll take Reason's stability and straightforward design anyday over FL5.

Another + for Reason for me is it is cross-platform, so I can use my Powerbook to start a tune, then finish it up on my Windows DAW rewired to Live or Tracktion.

I finally figured out where I stand with FL: I don't want to get it. It just doesn't suit my sensibilities. But I figure there are people out there who it seems perfect in every way, and feel exactly the oposite about Reason.

I had the exact same experience. I even own FL, but I never use it. I only open it if my buddy writes something in it that I need to render out. But he's using Reason now too, so that is going to go away as well.

FL just didn't click with me. My buddy can fly around in it really well, but he has moved to Reason as well. We use Live rewired up to Reason for Audio work, but I own Tracktion as well. I really like Tracktion, but I like the looping capabilities of Live.

Do I use VST's in Live? Yeah, but not much. There are some good ones out there, but with Combinator in Reason 3, I don't see a reason to use much else.

[lucille]

I don't think any discussion of rewire is complete without some mention of the incredible problems that
this standard has shown in its various implementtions.

Rewire in Logic was essentially a nonstarter until 6.o and even in in Logic 7 there are numerous posts about rewire sync issues. Sonar rewire has be relatively bug free, but a 16 midi device limit and awkward mono send implemtation along with intermittant sync issues has made it unattractive. Cubase has a similarly painful mono send set up. interestingly, Sonar has a much smoother rewire set up for Live and P5...

Granted, these are implementation issues, and not really props direct responsibility. However, the problematic nature of rewire has made me a non user--
except with Ableton--which has a strong implementation. In contrast, vst support has been robust in all pc hosts --except Logic 5.x==seems emagic wasn't really interested in 3rd party standards.

I don't really know what to conclude. I am surprised
props were able to impose a standard on the market as
readily as they did...and why a standard that was being embraced was implemented so poorly...

[drez]

I don't really know what to conclude. I am surprised
props were able to impose a standard on the market as
readily as they did...and why a standard that was being embraced was implemented so poorly...

Well, Live's implementation is indeed awesome. Its perfectly sync'd and easy to create and manage Rewire tracks. If Cubase and Logic have all these problems, then it must be the coders fault at those companies, because Ableton has done just fine. Can't fault Prop's for poor implementation because it can be done right, as you have pointed out yourself:

...except with Ableton--which has a strong implementation.

Since it is possible, then its up to the companies to implement it correctly. Tracktion's implementation is great too, except for the loop problem.

[birrbits]

I'm not sure how this has been overlooked, as the title of this thread is comparing Reason and FL...
They are both outstanding programs but the clincher for me is simple (someone correct me if Reason 3.0 has addressed this)

Reason has no MIDI out

I own some hardware synths still

FL wins

[tony tony chopper]

What is wrong with that?

nothing. What's wrong is that you claim they want to set up standards, which isn't true. If they're the only ones to create such files, it's just a format, not a standard.

Wrong. From the Propellerheads site

I know better than you, I'm using their REX loader. It doesn't allow you to create REX files.

Personally I wish everyone was storing loops in wav files - everyone can read them, everyone can write them. Everyone benefits from that - you get a loop wav file, you can use it in whatever player you want. You want to edit it, you can do that in whatever editor you want.
This can hurt a company, but you, the user, can only benefit from it.

[braj]

Personally I wish everyone was storing loops in wav files - everyone can read them, everyone can write them. Everyone benefits from that - you get a loop wav file, you can use it in whatever player you want. You want to edit it, you can do that in whatever editor you want.

I totally agree with that. The one thing I guess I really don't like about Reason is that you can't open ReFills and use the files outside Reason. I personally don't use REX files much anyway, but I do have a couple of REX loop CDs that are nearly useless to me since getting Live.

[TeeLangSun]

What is wrong with that?

nothing. What's wrong is that you claim they want to set up standards, which isn't true. If they're the only ones to create such files, it's just a format, not a standard.

Wrong. From the Propellerheads site

I know better than you, I'm using their REX loader. It doesn't allow you to create REX files.

Personally I wish everyone was storing loops in wav files - everyone can read them, everyone can write them. Everyone benefits from that - you get a loop wav file, you can use it in whatever player you want. You want to edit it, you can do that in whatever editor you want.
This can hurt a company, but you, the user, can only benefit from it.

I agree with this sentiment generally but just to clarify one thing. Other beatslicers can create rex files but not Rex2 files which can be stereo. I use Zero X BeatCreator which can create rex files, but if the file happens to be a stereo loop, it gives you a message that a stereo file won't work. Make it mono and you get your rex file. Apparently, the Props are keeping the "really good stuff" for themselves. LOL.

Personally, I don't use Rex files anyway. Not even in Reason. I chop up a beat and export it as a sf2/midi file and load it into a sampler or soundfont player. This I can get into any sequencer I choose to use and does precisely the same thing that a rex file does, maybe more.

[TVD]

I can do all of the above with Tracktion too right ? so why do I need another host ? Well, Video is one. I do also get a sampler. Bt most of all, I think it's the pattern sequencer that intreasts me. I am very weak at making good drum patters. and nothing has assisted me much so far.


I also want to know, video is important to me, does FL integrate well with video ? Does the plugin allow scrub along with timeline (for sync and stuff) ?

thanks again

Sidhu

Tracktion has a sampler as of V.1.

Tracktion 2 has Video also (similar to FL5, i.e. floating window). In T2 video is QuickTime.

I know bout the built in sampler with T1. But is not it tooo basic ? I read that T2 has video. But i dont like the QT only factor. I try and stay away from QT. dont like the way it imposes itself on the mixer.

Still, main reason for using FL and not a host like Tracktion ?

Also, what are the sync options with FL ? I often need midi clock, and would like MTC also. I know that T2 has these.

thanks

Sidhu

Read in-depth details here:

http://www.flstudio.com/help/

On the top left side, check out the subjects or MIDI setup.