Composing problem

[Munin]

Hi,
I try to make the little tune every once in a while..but I just can't get it, eh, right...what I mean is that I CAN come up with some nice melodies and motives (but even that is hard for me) but I just can't manage to make my tunes evolve, to give them variation. At least not without coming up with a melody that sounds completely out of place in the context of the 'old' one.
I hope everyone gets what I mean...I don't know if it is lack of creativity or maybe lack of musicianship...because I have little to none knowledge about playing piano etc. I just trial & error, kind of. I know some basics, as in, a few chords, basic harmony theory, that stuff..but not much
Would taking keyboard/piano lessons help me in that way? I don't need to be fast, or whatever. But I just can't compose well enough. 99% of my tunes end up to be 1:30 sketches that I in the end just toss away because after making the initial melody, I don't know how to proceed.

Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks.

[M'Snah]

...

[Ocean Zen]

Learning an instrument and msic theory will definitely help.
I play guitar and keyboards and have just started piano lessons. I've started composing melodies on the keyboard a lot more than I used to. I used to do a lot in the matrix edit page.
Also I've been studying Music Theory at Uni, and this has opened up loads of new doors. Definitely worth learning, IMO.

Don't get downheartened, if you enjoy making music, stick with it.
I bet a lot of the more successful people on here, would be very embarrassed to show you their early work.

[M'Snah]

...

[jens]

it's like this:

the composition is your creation - you are the master, are the god who makes it - you have every freedom - listen to what you've got so far in a loop and try to imagine how you would like the tune to continue - when you have some kind of a basic idea then look for ways to realize it.

- if you still can't come up with an idea after a while
start working on a new tune...

[aldred]

Depends what you want to write. If you have 1:30 minutes, then that's more than enough for your average song. Just needs padding out + repeat according to the rules of pop/rock/whatever. No problem with that. Just make the chorus catchier than the verse and bob's your uncle.

Then again, if you want to write a decent evolving piece of music, it might be an idea to listen carefully and figure out what gives the tune you've halfway finished its character. I know people who do this and understand the music theory behind it. I know very little theory and do things like you - trial and error. I also find it useful to think of something that matched the mood of what I'm aiming at and keep it in my mind while composing. Imagine a picture or a movie or anything. Maybe it's just me, but this keeps me more on track than anything else I've tried.

mark

[Ackelito]

I know exactly what you mean!

The way i try to overcome it is to stick to what sounds best, and when im sidetracked i save a new version and continue the mission.. sometimes i can have material for 5 tunes in one project! and everything can sound good on its own, but it wont blend with the rest, i think it gets like that when you get bored after a while of composing! i drift away to another key and find new melodies and motives!

i try to avoid it now! and delete everything from the project thats not making sense...but before i do i save it as another version if the sidetracked material has some potential..

right now i have a little something that is just in the early stage, but i force my self to stick to one thing until i find something the blends with what i got.

im have a plan to study more music theory and learn some more basic things to make it easier to not drift away to pieces that dont belong, instead make melodies and motives that has a connection...

though sometimes when you drift away you can find magic combinations that you probably wouldn´t do if you didnt fool around and let your imagination have a play...

so its not always good to be too strict..

if you want to fullfill a tune you got to take the time it takes, sometimes its a struggle and sometimes it just flows...

be objective when you get sidetracked and it will be easier to grab something... if you have a good melody, try to find another good one that will blend with the previous one...sometimes/manytimes you have to work backwards... HansM said something about inversions and playing the melody with another instrument.. add or delete notes.. try anything

and do make a effort to study!

im speaking as a newbie here so its just things i have encounterd...

[xoxos]

i usually come up with fave melodies when doing something else, the dishes, riding bike.. start humming..

get the part you've got down and forget about it.. don't stress :p few weeks later you'll be humming it and transition into the next part and realise "hey!"

[hyperborea]

Hi Munin. You've got a lot of good tips from the peeps here and I bet there are some that will suit you

There is nothing wrong with 1.30 minute songs as long as YOU like them. Stick with the method that feels the most natural for you and don't forget that all answers lie in the seeking. Enjoy the road your taking without worrying what the end result will be Let your inspiration take over and go with the flow.

I realize that my suggestions are a little vague but I am convinced that they are valid.

Best of luck.

[barbakane]

Here's an idea that has helped me more times that I care to admit:

Listen to some of your favorite songs, and then try to figure out why you like them so much.

Is it the chord progression, the transition from verse to chorus, (assuming it has any chorus), the intro, the ending...whatever.
Then write a song based on what you liked in the first song.

My main influence is Tangerine Dream, so when I really like one of their chord progressions, I try to come up with that same structure. and assuming you have/understand MIDI, reverse the progression, transpose, change notes slightly.

Understanding how to read/manipulate the piano roll screen of your host will give a great visual idea of what's going on. A lot of people learn quicker that way. I know I do. I'm not big on theory per se. Hell Jimmy Page doesn't know scales, but that doesn't seem to hinder him at all!

I saw an interview with Leonard Bernstein one time, the world famous pianist, and he said if he's told to play a certain chord, he can only play it one way. His thinking is deep set on classical music.

However, he also said that he admires today's music because it's not so defined and rigidly structured.

Who knows, you may just come up the the next great style in music! Sounds like you have a lot less boxes for your music to fit in, and I think that's a great thing. Work up to YOUR expectations, and it may just surprise you where you end up.

[cron]

99% of my tunes end up to be 1:30 sketches that I in the end just toss away because after making the initial melody, I don't know how to proceed.

One of the most important things you can do is to save everything, and I mean everything.

It's difficult to get into the habit if you already have a habit of quitting your sequencer and hitting 'don't save' to remove the memory of that 20 second false start you've just created. If you're already in the pattern of throwing stuff away at the end of your session, then every time you open your sequencer you're bracing for disappointment before you even put down a note.

No matter how shit you think something you've made is, save it. No really, save it! Each and every time you quit your sequencer, save!

Subtle, eh?

[gcsmoney]

I agree with HansM. The more exposure to the views of different composers/musicians, the more it will help to open your ears and mind. If you do not have a large collection of music to draw from, maybe try a cheap monthly .mp3 service. For example, I do subscribe to Real Player Rhapsody ($9.95/month) and I
(NO, they're not paying me to say this!!) love their variety. Also,some other tools may help-a host with a melody randomizer (for inspiration), Some keyboard lessons is not a bad idea-when you can play smoothly without having to take time to program, you don't lose your flow/idea. I personally also think keeping any simple recording device handy helps-You can hum the melody before you forget & then transcribe it later. Hope this helped, G out....




And remember kids, if you can't laugh at yourself...We can still laugh at you!

[jens]

99% of my tunes end up to be 1:30 sketches that I in the end just toss away because after making the initial melody, I don't know how to proceed.

One of the most important things you can do is to save everything, and I mean everything.

It's difficult to get into the habit if you already have a habit of quitting your sequencer and hitting 'don't save' to remove the memory of that 20 second false start you've just created. If you're already in the pattern of throwing stuff away at the end of your session, then every time you open your sequencer you're bracing for disappointment before you even put down a note.

No matter how shit you think something you've made is, save it. No really, save it! Each and every time you quit your sequencer, save!

Subtle, eh?

I think that's one of the biggest mistakes and biggest problems about composing - the idea that everything should be kept and that it must be saved for not losing it - this attitude is killing creativity - don't be afraid to throw something away and don't think every little melody must be saved and transformed into a track/song

The ability to improvise is one of the biggest virtues when creating music - just play around with the harmony, try this and try that but don't be afraid about losing what you've created - when the time comes you will have gained something like a 'toolbox' from which you can apply the right tool in the right moment - and everything you ever played or just hummed or whistled or maybe even just hummed in your head is still there within you...

When I'm playing around with a guitar or a synth (or a bass-guitar - whatever) it happens very often that I come across licks or melodies which I think are worth to be transformed into a song -but I only do it when I'm in the mood of creating a song - and often I'm not - I just want to play around...
- but I don't need to keep it anyway because my toolbox is huge

[Marc JX8P]

When I started with music I was very much inspired by Jarre and Vangelis. The nice thing about some of their music is that the melodies are really simple and I did a lot of their tracks on my keyboard, trying to emulate their sounds and melodies. Now the nice thing about doing this is that it forces you to actively listen to what is happen in a song as well that it teaches you some new chords or whatever. Also, because you're working towards a goal you know you don't run the risk of getting lost in a sea of possibilities. It teaches you a lot about how to structure songs. It's also often quite nice to let a certain rhythm loop and keep on improvising over it to get an idea for longer melodies and chord progressions.

One directly applicable tip I would give you is to isolate parts of your themes - say the bass or the rhythm - and let them return later on in a different part of the track. This helps tie a song together.

But I know the problem. Several of my tracks end up going a totally different way than I had in mind when I started them because I tend to work on tracks without much forethought. In the end, I throw lots of the stuff that feels wrong away. Don't be afraid to do that too - ideas can be nice in themselves but if they don't serve the track in the end it's often easier to just drop them than keep on trying to rework and integrate them into the song.

[cron]

99% of my tunes end up to be 1:30 sketches that I in the end just toss away because after making the initial melody, I don't know how to proceed.

One of the most important things you can do is to save everything, and I mean everything.

It's difficult to get into the habit if you already have a habit of quitting your sequencer and hitting 'don't save' to remove the memory of that 20 second false start you've just created. If you're already in the pattern of throwing stuff away at the end of your session, then every time you open your sequencer you're bracing for disappointment before you even put down a note.

No matter how shit you think something you've made is, save it. No really, save it! Each and every time you quit your sequencer, save!

Subtle, eh?

I think that's one of the biggest mistakes and biggest problems about composing - the idea that everything should be kept and that it must be saved for not losing it - this attitude is killing creativity - don't be afraid to throw something away and don't think every little melody must be saved and transformed into a track/song

My own attitude towards saving stuff is highly personal, granted. I always threw everything away because it was never good enough. Getting into the habit of saving stuff every time got me out of the habit of routinely chucking it out. Munin's words on throwing almost everything he/she did away really struck a chord.

Plus I always find it helpful to revisit all those old files (even though I usually have no intention of overhauling/finishing them) just because it helps remind me where I'm going with my art. Which ideas eventually became what, when did I first try this technique etc etc. Almost like keeping a sketchbook.