Engineering (Not Mastering)...

[Omniphonix]

So what's the common practice in the electronic music business when it comes to engineering? By this, I'm talking about tweaking the individual tracks pre-mixdown so the track is ready to send to mastering. You know, tweaking EQs so everything has it's own space. Stereo imaging to keep parts spread out. Getting all the levels just right. All the stuff that doesn't really involve composing music. Obviously there are some things we would do (like some interesting filter work on a bass line or tempo-synched delay on a lead line), but I'm talking about the polishing work that most big name musicians pay someone else to do.

My partner and I love writing music, but hate sitting there tweaking EQs and compressors and panners and etc. etc. for hours trying to get that pro sound. I seriously think we're just not wired for that sort of thing. So my question is, do most electronic musicians engineer their own tracks, or send them off to engineers like a band recording in a studio would do? What are normal rates for these people? Does anyone have people they would recommend? Does anyone do this for other people? Should we just bite the bullet, roll up our sleaves, and learn to do it ourselves? If you've heard some of our stuff in the music cafe, you'd know how badly we're in need of an engineer.

[CypherOne]

1 - I don't think you're that much in need of help
2 - I can't really comment as I'm only a hobbyist
3 - I tend to write the parts then settle on an arrangment. Then I EQ and pan parts as needed, then finally whack it through Ozone (often several times before I'm happy ,i.e. starting over each time).

It depends where you want to go with it, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to learn more about it and do it yourselves - even if you do end up sending tracks for 'professional' mastering, it would be handy to know what you think needs doing to the track rather than being led by the 'pro'...

[Stupid American Pig]

Traditionally engineering takes place at the time of recording or before recording. Engineers would handle things like mic placement, drum set up, etc. They would also operate tape machines and the like. If you are doing most of your writing with Vsts and midi, there is not much "engineering" that needs to be done, and it falls more on the production side of things. unless you are recording live audio the good news is that you can always fix it later. But if you are recording live audio, you will need to take the time to get a good signal as it is tougher to fix.

To really answer your question, if you are going to record at home you should learn some basics of production and engineering. Alot of it is set it and forget it type stuff, now that I know where to place the mics for my piano, I dont need to spend alot of time setting it up anymore, and I have presets for compressors and eqs that allow me to quickly dial in a sound. One book I read that helped alot is "Modern Recording techniques" which you can find here

There are other excellent books out there, but you will be doing yerself a favor to learn some of this, and things will get much easier for you...

[Omniphonix]

Well, as much as I appreciate your vote of confidence, Cypher, I still listen to other artists' breakbeat records and then compare them to ours and think "why doesn't our track sound this professional". Even against your tracks, I don't think our stuff sounds as professional. Maybe it's just because we have so much more going on than most other breaks. I still think our stuff would stick out like a sore thumb in a DJ set. Oh, I guess I should mention goal number one is to get some vinyl pressed.

By the way, have you shopped any of your stuff around to labels? I know quite a few DJs who would buy your stuff in a second.

[bmanic]

Note that arrangement plays a huge role in how a tune comes out. A bad, crowded, or too spaced, arrangement can't be fixed with eq/compression. I find this to be the nr1 beginners mistake when people start out making electronic music. I'm definately no expert but my tunes have improved by quite a margin after I figured out that the arrangement was screwed up.

Cheers!
bManic

[Omniphonix]

I understand where you're coming from, bmanic, I know I had that problem quite a bit when I was getting started. I think after 5 years I've finally gotten through that phase (or maybe not, you tell me). What I'm thinking is going on now is that we aim for such a huge sound in our tracks that sometimes it can be a bit overbearing. We need to find that fine line where tracks are still huge but well articulated.

[dx-9]

well to answer the question if electronic acts give their tracks away for mastering:

-yes, if it comes out on a "major" or known label its done! but mostly its initiated by the guys who own the label, so you would have nothing to do with it.

-and yes, if they want it to sound really good

-no, if they think, their sound is good enough and their perhaps pressing it by themselfs.

regards
y.

[popsych]

I have to agree with bmanic for the arrangement stuff. First you need to separate what's doable in which domain - i.e if it needs fixing in the arrangement e.g. big kick and PHAT bass going off together, or in the engineering e.g. too muddied up cause you have mids and lows that shouldn't be there, bad panning etc. Also learn how eq's, and compressors work - they are most valuable for clearing up a mix, and don't drown everything in delays.

I would suggest searching around. I learned a lot of stuff over the net and actually convinced someone that a track of mine was Van Buuren playing. When i told him it was mine he exclaimed : "It can't be - it sounds professional" . Thank the lord for DARPANET .

[hlmst]

Audioflux, I know some gay boy bands who rent sound engineers to do the work for them but really, straight ppl should do it 'emselves.

[Omniphonix]

Trouble is, I understand how EQs and compressors work, I've just never been very good at using them. If I could get some kind of sidechain compression going on in Cubase, I would be a happy camper (also if maybe I could get my percussionist to stop cranking his kick drums up to 42dB over clipping). I think I have the hardest time hearing how I need to EQ each part to have it's own space in the mix and not interfere with other parts. Anyone have a good technique for doing this?

[Omniphonix]

Audioflux, I know some gay boy bands who rent sound engineers to do the work for them but really, straight ppl should do it 'emselves.

LOL Yeah, but someone else also wrote their lyrics, melodes, backing instrumentals, and applied auto tune to their singing. At least I don't feel like THAT big of a queer! LOL...

[bmanic]

I understand where you're coming from, bmanic, I know I had that problem quite a bit when I was getting started. I think after 5 years I've finally gotten through that phase (or maybe not, you tell me). What I'm thinking is going on now is that we aim for such a huge sound in our tracks that sometimes it can be a bit overbearing. We need to find that fine line where tracks are still huge but well articulated.

I took a listen and I have to say that certain things in the track "sickness" come down to poor choise of sounds/samples. The kick drum being one. Also, everything seems to be a bit too laid back as opposed to 'in-your-face' but that is more a mixing issue. Arrangement wise you are missing some low-mid range full sounds. There's bass and there are highs but no real solid mids or low-mids which makes the track sound quite thin, like there was a 'hole' in the track. This can NOT be corrected with EQ, you simply need some instrument there with low-mids and mids. The bass+beat could cover this ground but your choice is a hollow bass which enhances the "empty feeling" of the mix and the kick is much too 'round' somehow.

The breakbeat track has more low-mids and mids mostly because of the kick and that wide stereo 'bass'/lead line. Overall it seems better balanced.

I like the tracks, the breakbeat a bit more but both have a bit weak drums IMHO. Mainly the samples and the pattern should vary a bit more. There's this great breakdown at the end of the breakbeat track but then when I expect the drums to get really serious and big and complex they just keep going like they did in the beginning! Good moving synth lines and complex structures. Keep at it! There's some good potential here!

Cheers!
bManic

[dx-9]

Audioflux1 wrote: I need to EQ each part to have it's own space in the mix and not interfere with other parts. Anyone have a good technique for doing this?

-personally I use starting EQing at 0.0
-to listen if it fits. I pull master volume up, if there is something...kicks etc. are too loud, then I increase low freq or bass on this channel of the mixer or in tha host of course... then I listen to it at level +-0 and then on -6, to-8db

-EQing is something you can add on the whole track or on diff. channels. if you use it on the whole track, you should do it like i described it with the listening at diff. volumes and set correction in your host and not especially on the EQ first. only if every tone is on the vol. you want it to be, then start moving EQ from neutral position!

regards
y.

[Omniphonix]

I understand where you're coming from, bmanic, I know I had that problem quite a bit when I was getting started. I think after 5 years I've finally gotten through that phase (or maybe not, you tell me). What I'm thinking is going on now is that we aim for such a huge sound in our tracks that sometimes it can be a bit overbearing. We need to find that fine line where tracks are still huge but well articulated.

I took a listen and I have to say that certain things in the track "sickness" come down to poor choise of sounds/samples. The kick drum being one. Also, everything seems to be a bit too laid back as opposed to 'in-your-face' but that is more a mixing issue. Arrangement wise you are missing some low-mid range full sounds. There's bass and there are highs but no real solid mids or low-mids which makes the track sound quite thin, like there was a 'hole' in the track. This can NOT be corrected with EQ, you simply need some instrument there with low-mids and mids. The bass+beat could cover this ground but your choice is a hollow bass which enhances the "empty feeling" of the mix and the kick is much too 'round' somehow.

The breakbeat track has more low-mids and mids mostly because of the kick and that wide stereo 'bass'/lead line. Overall it seems better balanced.

I like the tracks, the breakbeat a bit more but both have a bit weak drums IMHO. Mainly the samples and the pattern should vary a bit more. There's this great breakdown at the end of the breakbeat track but then when I expect the drums to get really serious and big and complex they just keep going like they did in the beginning! Good moving synth lines and complex structures. Keep at it! There's some good potential here!

Cheers!
bManic

LOL, once again the majority of the complaints have to do with the drums... I just have to laugh since that's my partner's only function (well, that and other non-melodic samples). Yeah, Sickness was the first track we ever wrote together and our studio was nowhere near what it is now. Excess Bandwidth was about four or five soungs down the road from there. I definitely think we're getting there, but I feel like I'm running into a brick wall now in terms of getting better about the engineering. Hence, the posting of this thread.

I kinda disagree with you about the hollowness of the bass in Sickness, though. I know it can be fixed with EQ, because in the first mixdown it was consuming the whole track. Although I think I have a hard time dealing with Trilogy bass lines anyway. That's the only track I've used it on and I really don't care for it myself.

[bmanic]

Well, there's definately something going on in the low-mids/mids as most of my reference tracks (think big time hollywood mega super production, top notch sound), sound a bit boxy because of my crappy room and your track came out the complete opposite which would mean that there is some problems. I don't know how the original bass line or synth parts are EQd in the tracks so maybe it can be fixed with some tweaking?

Btw. have you considered getting a new partner to do the drums?

Cheers!
bManic