SAMPLITUDE RULES (DAW Summing)

[nuffink]

fengshui ?? me?? don't get it regarding to my post .

Any def musicians posting here? Maybe they can confirm that samplitude, SX, Fruity and other soft do NOT sound different.

DECK

I think he was implying that you are "hearing" stuff.

def.

[fishbowl.tucson.az]

Samplitude is underrated, or rather, forgotten.

Not really -- it's got a much smaller market, which competes with their own product (Sequoia), and SAWStudio and Nuendo, and probably one or two other really expensive packages I haven't heard of.

I might have bought Samplitude at some point, but Magix put me off with the crippled 2005 Studio. (It's not so much that the package is crippled, as the cold support attitude when I inquired about it.)

So the space where I used to use Magix is now filled by Audition, and I'm happy as a clam so far.

[popsych]

Samplitude is underrated, or rather, forgotten.

Not really -- it's got a much smaller market, which competes with their own product (Sequoia), and SAWStudio and Nuendo, and probably one or two other really expensive packages I haven't heard of.

I might have bought Samplitude at some point, but Magix put me off with the crippled 2005 Studio. (It's not so much that the package is crippled, as the cold support attitude when I inquired about it.)

So the space where I used to use Magix is now filled by Audition, and I'm happy as a clam so far.

I bought audition as i say in my first post, but rest assured that even for basic stuff it's nowhere near samp. And especially in UI terms when it comes to multitrack mixing. Of course i don't know what YOU want it for so i'm not to judge if audition is lacking for you

[brianbrian]

There ARE sound differences between DAWs. Summing engines do not just do simple math like 1 + 1 = 2. That example is just laughable. It all comes down to whether or not each channel is limited, and how the summing algorithms handle the rounding of numbers. Nuendo has an "invisible (not adjustable)" limiter on every channel, which contributes to the "Nuendo" sound.

If I use multi-outs from my sequencer (Orion Platinum) and sum in my Creamware card's mixer, it sounds better. Summing on my Creamware card sounds superior to summing in Nuendo 2.x. How much better? It's pretty damn close, but still audible. That is a fact. Anyway, as bManic said, DAW summing differences are VERY subtle and are really not a big deal at all. Summing in a better sounding app (which is subjective) is not going to turn shit into gold. If sound quality is paramount to you and money is no issue, go with an analog summing mixer. The difference there will be huge compared to the difference between DAW summing engines (plus you get the character of whatever preamp you want).

[nuffink]

There ARE sound differences between DAWs. Summing engines do not just do simple math like 1 + 1 = 2. That example is just laughable. It all comes down to whether or not each channel is limited, and how the summing algorithms handle the rounding of numbers. Nuendo has an "invisible (not adjustable)" limiter on every channel, which contributes to the "Nuendo" sound.

If I use multi-outs from my sequencer (Orion Platinum) and sum in my Creamware card's mixer, it sounds better. Summing on my Creamware card sounds superior to summing in Nuendo 2.x. How much better? It's pretty damn close, but still audible. That is a fact. Anyway, as bManic said, DAW summing differences are VERY subtle and are really not a big deal at all. Summing in a better sounding app (which is subjective) is not going to turn shit into gold. If sound quality is paramount to you and money is no issue, go with an analog summing mixer. The difference there will be huge compared to the difference between DAW summing engines (plus you get the character of whatever preamp you want).

Voodoo.

[stefancrs]

There ARE sound differences between DAWs. Summing engines do not just do simple math like 1 + 1 = 2. That example is just laughable. It all comes down to whether or not each channel is limited, and how the summing algorithms handle the rounding of numbers. Nuendo has an "invisible (not adjustable)" limiter on every channel, which contributes to the "Nuendo" sound.

If I use multi-outs from my sequencer (Orion Platinum) and sum in my Creamware card's mixer, it sounds better. Summing on my Creamware card sounds superior to summing in Nuendo 2.x. How much better? It's pretty damn close, but still audible. That is a fact. Anyway, as bManic said, DAW summing differences are VERY subtle and are really not a big deal at all. Summing in a better sounding app (which is subjective) is not going to turn shit into gold. If sound quality is paramount to you and money is no issue, go with an analog summing mixer. The difference there will be huge compared to the difference between DAW summing engines (plus you get the character of whatever preamp you want).

Voodoo.

placebo effect / slight difference in volume.
Raise the volume 1dB. You won't hear a difference in volume, but the mix will sound "clearer" and "better defined in the low and high end" etc

[nuffink]

placebo effect / slight difference in volume.
Raise the volume 1dB. You won't hear a difference in volume, but the mix will sound "clearer" and "better defined in the low and high end" etc

0.3dB will do the job nicely...
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_lvl.htm

n.b. you can't set level this accurately with a volume control alone, so I presume all the people who can hear a difference have access to an SPL meter. After all, they wouldn't want to fool themselves.

[bmanic]

actually, thinking about it..

say DAW 1 sums 2 Sine waves, both faders at -9dB just to use the daws calculations. Reverse ones phase. Render. Now do same in DAW 2. Compare the two renders. Both should be digital silence, no?

Cheers!
bManic

[Sielsynth]

Just got Samplitude V8 yesterday. Didn't have time to install it since it was Valentine's Day. Hopefully I can get it going tonight.

I currently use Tracktion and Adobe Audition. So I will be interested to see what kinda impression Samplitude makes on me. I guess it better be good for all the money I spent on it.

Samplitude doesn't get alot of attention here but hopefully we can change that.

[egbert]

Nuendo has an "invisible (not adjustable)" limiter on every channel, which contributes to the "Nuendo" sound.

Says who? All VST compatible hosts I know ( Logic PC, Cubase etc) have channels which output in 32 bit float. This format has 1500 dB of dynamic range. There is no limiting on a channel - just insert a plugin with gain control and turn up the gain - the meter for that channel will run over zero and this level will arrive at the output object. If you have the output fader up full it will clip and distort audibly. Where's the limiting?

Eg

[popsych]

Nuendo has an "invisible (not adjustable)" limiter on every channel, which contributes to the "Nuendo" sound.

Says who? All VST compatible hosts I know ( Logic PC, Cubase etc) have channels which output in 32 bit float. This format has 1500 dB of dynamic range. There is no limiting on a channel - just insert a plugin with gain control and turn up the gain - the meter for that channel will run over zero and this level will arrive at the output object. If you have the output fader up full it will clip and distort audibly. Where's the limiting?

Eg

I have to agre with you eg. It's the first time i've heard of it 2. Most probably misinformation on brianbrian's behalf

[Forever Sun]

Samplitude is underrated, or rather, forgotten.

Not really -- it's got a much smaller market, which competes with their own product (Sequoia), and SAWStudio and Nuendo, and probably one or two other really expensive packages I haven't heard of.

I might have bought Samplitude at some point, but Magix put me off with the crippled 2005 Studio. (It's not so much that the package is crippled, as the cold support attitude when I inquired about it.)

So the space where I used to use Magix is now filled by Audition, and I'm happy as a clam so far.

You might be correct. Smplitude is aimed more at the pro studio market, a kind of reel to reel replacemet.

Where did you enquire about Studio 2005 ? If it was the guys at Samplitude.com ( rather than Magix.com) then you would get a cold response as they are probably a little bit upset with Magix for marketing and selling a huge chunk of the original Samplitude package at £50 ! Me thinks

[monsterbeetle]

You may get a theoretical 1500db range but using floating point arithmetic, the actual rounding error magnitude is highly correlated to the magnitude of the signal. It all depends on the size of the mantissa that's used (for signed 32bits float, the exponent is 8 bits, the sign is 1 bit, and the mantissa is 23 bits, I think I've read somewhere that 48 bits fixed point arithmetic was better than 32 bits floats for mixing projects of up to 256 tracks, considering that the best audio system that can be built today can produce a dynamic range of 100dB, which is already really far from the dynamic range a 24 bit signal can encode).


So....

[egbert]

You may get a theoretical 1500db range but using floating point arithmetic, the actual rounding error magnitude is highly correlated to the magnitude of the signal. It all depends on the size of the mantissa that's used (for signed 32bits float, the exponent is 8 bits, the sign is 1 bit, and the mantissa is 23 bits, I think I've read somewhere that 48 bits fixed point arithmetic was better than 32 bits floats for mixing projects of up to 256 tracks, considering that the best audio system that can be built today can produce a dynamic range of 100dB, which is already really far from the dynamic range a 24 bit signal can encode).

I was simply addressing the idea that Nuendo had an invisible limiter on each track. I am not singing the praises of anything. I am sure that the 32 bit float VST spec can and will be improved - I wouldn't be surprised if VST 3.0 is a 64 bit float system and we all have to buy upgrades for all our plugins ... the horror ...


Regards,
Eg

[brianbrian]

Nuendo has an "invisible (not adjustable)" limiter on every channel, which contributes to the "Nuendo" sound.

Says who? All VST compatible hosts I know ( Logic PC, Cubase etc) have channels which output in 32 bit float. This format has 1500 dB of dynamic range. There is no limiting on a channel - just insert a plugin with gain control and turn up the gain - the meter for that channel will run over zero and this level will arrive at the output object. If you have the output fader up full it will clip and distort audibly. Where's the limiting?

Eg

Cubase works the same way. This is their so-called "True Tape" technology. Anyway it seems pointless to try to convince you guys. By the way, not all limiters have to exhibit brickwall behavior.