Fruity or Reason

[braj]

However, I just can't navigate that piano roll at all. I must be doing something wrong (and there's no entry for it in the Help file at all). For some reason, using the Snap button doesn't snap notes that you draw either.

Besides clicking the snap button, you have to set a snap value so the sequencer will know what value to snap to. It's just to the left of the snap button.

Anyway, I'm not sure why people think the Reason sequencer is so bad. It may be simple, but it does what it needs to well enough IMO.

Regarding orchestral composition in Reason's sequencer, it doesn't do tempo/time sygnature changes. That's something you'd definitely want a different sequencer for. Rewired though it could still be useful, it has a lot off quality orchestral sounds.

[headquest]

Hi there ceenda

I have to admit, I decided to download the demo for Reason 2.5 and give it another go. The NNXT is pretty impressive. Easy to input a soundbank or soundfont and adjust keymapping all from the same interface.

Yes I agree. I would like to know more about software sampling (and am waiting for a response to my previous enquiries on this thread!) because I'm not sure what else I'm missing. But I find NN-XT really rather good

However, I just can't navigate that piano roll at all.

As a general observation I think that mouse/pencil tool note entry is probably easier in FL, while playing in live from a keyboard works very well in Reason. Personally I do a lot of the basic work in Sibelius 3 as notation is a major part of my training/classical background/way of thinking. Importing MIDI files done in Sibelius is a breeze in Reason and saves (me) a lot of time. I tried this in the FL demo and ... oh, lets not go there... FL just seems to me to have a different way of working, more suitable for pattern based stuff.

When I first got Reason I used it as a ReWire slave within Cubase SX1, which was basically the "received wisdom". Shortly after that I migrated from Cubase to Tracktion but continued to use Reason in the same way. I have always basically used Reason as an instrument within another host. Certainly time-signature and tempo changes/ramps are easy to do in Tracktion for example, but are still not possible in Reason 3.0.

Having said that, I have just taught a group of students for a two-day introduction to Reason course. Although they had all previously used Tracktion (and some of them now have that at home) I made them work in Reason as a standalone application. And the results were interesting. While some said they would like to get Reason now to use as an instrument within Tracktion, others said they actually prefered sequencing in Reason's piano roll (I doubt they'll be saying that once T2 is out )

None of them could give a precise explanation for their preferences - I can only conclude that it really down to personal preference and taste.

Apart from the tempo/time sig point made bvy Braj (which I really hope the Props will deal with ) I think that Reason's sequencer has all the tools you really need. I prefer automation in Tracktion, but you can't fault the precision with which Reason implements it - again it's a matter of taste.

I must be doing something wrong (and there's no entry for it in the Help file at all). For some reason, using the Snap button doesn't snap notes that you draw either.

A big breakthrough for me came quite by chance when I finally worked out how to "group" notes into clips. Give me clips any day when making an arrangement (that's one of the things I love about Tracktion).

In case you've not discovered yet, you square off a group of notes/bars in the arrange view (not piano roll), hold down "shift", right click and select "group" from the dropdown menu. Once you've done this navigation is sooo much easier

That said, I've always liked the virtual rack. It's fun to see all the connections and wire up and route Sends, Returns etc.

The CV routing is when Reason's approach really comes into its own. I'm not aware of this being possible in most VSTs (Reaktor aside). In their own right Reason's modules are pretty good, but the CV cabling allows you to multiply them with each other. I'm no expert at this yet, and I'm still at the hit & miss stage, but it's fun trying out a few bizarre ideas!

I must spend more time on reason. Though I don't know how well it handles more Orchestral compositions. (I don't mean Orkester as in Orchestral sounds, but more freeform musical styles. All the 'orchestral' demos seem to be 4/4 pop-soundtrack style)

I don't know which Reason songs come in the demo download, but there's one in the full program called "One More Reason" which runs the gamut of modern jazz styles - lots of detail and quite inspiring. Well worth a listen if you have it.

Also there are nearly 7000 free songs to download from the official Props site alone at present, which you can sort according to style. Maybe worth checking out?

Bottom line for me is that if I don't need to Rewire Reason into something else, why bother? Reason *can* be used standalone, and works well for me when I have a finished Sibelius score that I want to unleash into an experimental production environment. Other times I use Tracktion, Audition or Live depending on the type of music/arrangement I'm after.

Whichever sequencer I'm using, Reason is one cool instrument

[headquest]

I must say, that I find 'rewiring' stuff in an educational/teaching context a tad strange.

Carb.

I'm interested to know why you think that. Are you a teacher too?

The students I teach all start off with a "basics" course using Tracktion. This is mostly audio based using keyboards, adding VST effects such as the Kjaerhus classics, mixing, etc. Some MIDI is included too, using Tracktion's own simple sampler, FreeAlpha and Synth 1. After that I give more detailed Tracktion follow-up courses. And courses in Reason (standalone).

In my experience schools don't always understand requests for spending money on VST instruments, especially if they come only as downloads. Schools want to buy something in a box with an invoice. Reason very much satisfies this "need" and at the same time provides pupils with a full-on collection of synths, samplers and effects.

Reason's modular approach and Rack emulation is also great for introducing students to the basics of hardware and how recording studios work.

The Propellerheads have recently put much effort into their "Teaching Music with Reason" curriculum, which I can attest is absolutely excellent as a classroom resource. I think this is quite probably the best effort yet made my any music software company to really invest into the potential of todays young people, and I take my hat off to them for that commitment.

ReWiring Reason into Tracktion is a perfectly instinctive thing to do, and using Tracktion's approach is no more demanding than using a VST.

I hope that explains why I find Reason a good option for schools to buy, and why I also use ReWire as a way to maximise that investment and unleash Reason's power within the more open Tracktion environment.

But like I said I am interested to know your thoughts on this.

[braj]

I definitely prefer Reason's midi sequencing to Tracktion! Hopefully T2 will live up to expectations. T1's midi is just too funky for me.

Maybe I'm just not seeing what is so limiting with Reason's midi beyond time sigs and tempo. On problem I used to have, especially with drums, was that it seemed I could only change the velocity of whole notes in a step at a time. I couldn't figure it out and reading the manual was no help, but then I realized there was a key combo and I never looked back. In Reason I guess I learned little tricks, like coppying a note that has the the velocity I want where I want that hard a hit/note. I actually like Reason's sequencer a lot, come to think about it.

[headquest]

It's growing on me too, Braj.

Better documentation would help though. I've been thinking of buying a book on "power" user tips, both for learning new tricks myself and improving teaching content. But I've been holding back in the hopes that a book for v.3.0 will come out before too long.

Has anyone here read a good book for Reason? I had been thinking of Michael Prager's Reason 2.5 Power - has anyone read it, or is there anything better out there?

[TeeLangSun]

But please don't try to make me look silly by misquoting me! The main point I was making is that there isn't anything directly comparable with NN-XT without spending a lot of extra money.

Well, I wasn't TRYING to make you look silly, but your comments speak for themselves. You couldn't possibly have been more wrong about Vsampler. You still give NN-XT too much credit. My apologies for misquoting you on the Gigasampler thing, but I believe the thrust of what I'm saying is still valid.

You don't know the full capabilities of the sampler channel in FL Studio. The sampler channel is not like a separate module, it's an integral part of FL which serves many functions. It's difficult to compare it directly to a sampler.

Fruity loops does not give the ability to load large soundbanks or mangle samples in the way that Reason's devices do, and JMC confirmed as much in this thread. So in response to the original question, it is quite right to highlight that this difference exists, and inappropriate for FL users to misquote and invent reasons to flame me!

Nobody's inventing reasons to flame you, and nobody has flamed you as far as I can see. You're simply mistaken with your facts. Just making a direct comparison between FL and Reason seems flawed to me. They're two entirely different programs. I've used Reason since a month after it's initial release so I have enough experience with it to have an opinion on what it is and isn't. I've used FL for even longer so I know a good deal about it as well. I believe that they are two entirely different animals and serve different purposes. No point in comparing the two. It's almost like comparing a sequencer with a plugin instrument.

The cost of FL XXL is $299, while Kontakt 2 costs $499. Giving a total of $798, compared to Reason's $369. So buying FL plus Kontakt costs more than DOUBLE the cost of Reason. This is what I meant when stating that Reason "stacks up as a damn good bargain". And this is before you start to equip FL with other VSTs to compare it properly with Reason. For example the RV7000 reverb, DrRex, Scream4, Maelstrom, etc... none of which have comparable counterparts in FL, and would therefore need VST alternatives.

This is also misleading because right off the bat, Reason doesn't do a fraction of the things that FL does. What is all the features in FL's sequencer worth? You can't complete a song in Reason. If you wanted to slice up a beat, you can go out and pick up Recycle for $250.00, more than the cost of FL Studio even though FL has built in beatslicing. If you needed a basic audio editor, you can go out and buy one for a couple hundred, but FL has one built in. If you wanted to record vocals, mix and finalize you Reason song, you can head down to Guitar Center and pick up a copy of Cubase for a cool $600.00. Or get FL and do all the above without buying a single other application. As for adding on VST plugins, that's a benefit, not a problem. I would not like to have Imageline include a sampler in FL and make it mandatory that I buy it, if I want to use FL Studio. I know exactly which sampler works well for me and NN-XT ain't it. It's a cool and decently equipped sampler, but I chose Vsampler because I love the way it works. With Reason, you don't have that option. You don't even have a decently spec'd sequencer. It's more like an afterthought that was thrown in at the last minute and totally and completely neglected for the last 4 years. As soon as you need to do anything beyond mangling some sounds, you'll be out buying more programs.

On the subject of NN-XT, it loads .wav, .aiff, sf2 and AKAI (using Reload), which covers all my needs. I don't have samples in the other formats you mention. But if you personally have a sample library disparate enough to include samples in those various formats I can see why you would find NN-XT limiting on that level.

It's not about me and you since we're not the only two people in the world that use these programs. You're making yourself sound silly, again. There are obviously people who use each and every single one of those formats I mentioned, regardless of what you or I use. So yes NN-XT is limiting in this way, and in many others. This much is blatantly obvious. What's the point of arguing.

NN-XT can, however auto-map samples, including recognising the volocity-layer information in the header. You imply it can't do that, but I can assure you that it does so instantaneously.

I did not imply any such thing. I stated that Vsampler could SLICE a beat and automap the slices to keys. This is very different than merely mapping samples to keys. NN-XT, nor anything else in Reason can slice a sample. Any sampler can automap samples to keys with respect to pitch. Even NN-19.

One question I have relates to routing. Swivel NN-XT around and you get access to the following in/outputs:

Sequencer Control: CV, Gate
Modulation Control: Osc Pitch, Filter Cutoff, Filter Res, LFO1 rate, Master volume, Pan, Modulation Wheel
Gate Inputs: Amp envelope, Mod envelope
Audio Outputs x 16

Bearing in mind the extent that CV cabling and audio routing NN-XT through Reason's other synths and effects modules extends it's power, can you advise me which VST samplers will allow you to CV cable to which other VSTs? For example, could I use Linplug Albino' arpeggiator to modulate Kontakt's filters, and then feed Kontakt's audio back into Albino for further synthesis? And would I need a different host to accomplish such routing?

Come on man, I corrected you concerning Vsampler. What you've just stated is more a function of Reason, than of NN-XT. Don't misunderstand me, I know as well as the next man that Reason is totally unique in regards to it's routing abilities. You just need a little perspective on the matter of trying to make pointless comparisons. Reason and FL are apples and oranges. It's not a matter of either/or. FL, nor any other sequencer that I'm aware of can do what Reason can do. Reason can't do a fraction of what typical soft studios do nor does it have a fraction of their features. Let alone something is powerful as FL Studio. It is what it is. I have total respect for Reason and it's incredible stability. But I also recognize that if I never loaded a plugin into FL, it probably would have never ever crashed. And the number of times it's crashed over the years is totally acceptable when compared against what it can do, and has done for me.

[braj]

I have Power Tools for Reason 2.5 but haven't gotten enough time to read it extensively. But there's lots about modulations and CV/Gate usage. It's a good book.

[headquest]

You couldn't possibly have been more wrong about Vsampler.

Yes, I acknowledged that above. I was being careless in the way I phrased the statement and mistakenly lumped VSampler with NN-XT rather than with Gigastudio, which I take it you feel it is more on a level with. I don't know much about VSampler.

: My apologies for misquoting you on the Gigasampler thing, but I believe the thrust of what I'm saying is still valid.

That's OK, and I accept your position on samplers.

But NN-XT suits my needs very well - I don't think that is overestimating it.

Just making a direct comparison between FL and Reason seems flawed to me. They're two entirely different programs. I've used Reason since a month after it's initial release so I have enough experience with it to have an opinion on what it is and isn't. I've used FL for even longer so I know a good deal about it as well. I believe that they are two entirely different animals and serve different purposes. No point in comparing the two. It's almost like comparing a sequencer with a plugin instrument.

I entirely agree - and if you read through the whole thread you'll see that I've been making that exact point on numerous occasions throughout the debate . I also consistently write that I use Reason as an "instrument" first and foremost.

This is also misleading because right off the bat, Reason doesn't do a fraction of the things that FL does.

And vice-versa - let's be balanced about this! Both have some pretty unique and cool features.

What is all the features in FL's sequencer worth? You can't complete a song in Reason.

Actually I can. What I can do and what you think I can do might be different . And with M-Class you'll even get a decent master

If you wanted to slice up a beat, you can go out and pick up Recycle for $250.00, more than the cost of FL Studio even though FL has built in beatslicing.

I don't do beatslicing (no my musical style) so I wouldn't need that feature. Nor can I comment on FL's beatslicing, for the same reason. I do know that by reputation ReCycle is the tool of the professionals, but that's about where my knowledge ends.

If you needed a basic audio editor, you can go out and buy one for a couple hundred, but FL has one built in.

I don't need a "basic" audio editor. Audio is absolutely crucial to me, and the simgle most important aspect of everything I do. That's why I use Adobe Audition (as do many FL users). Please don't tell me that you think FL competes with Audition too!

If you wanted to record vocals, mix and finalize you Reason song, you can head down to Guitar Center and pick up a copy of Cubase for a cool $600.00. Or get FL and do all the above without buying a single other application.

Or use Tracktion which, in my experience is far more reliable, easy to use, and has better sound quality than FL (including 64/192 support in v.2). And costs less than FL.

You don't even have a decently spec'd sequencer. It's more like an afterthought that was thrown in at the last minute and totally and completely neglected for the last 4 years.

See my comments on the sequencer above. I think that which sequencer is better featured depends on your method of working.

As soon as you need to do anything beyond mangling some sounds, you'll be out buying more programs.

I would assume that many FL users do just that. They surely buy decent VST instruments? VSampler wasn't free was it? And surely you don't claim FL is suitable for mastering without at least paying for a plug-in? Or for audio editing?

It's not about me and you since we're not the only two people in the world that use these programs. You're making yourself sound silly, again. There are obviously people who use each and every single one of those formats I mentioned, regardless of what you or I use. So yes NN-XT is limiting in this way, and in many others. This much is blatantly obvious. What's the point of arguing.

I wasn't argueing, merely pointing out that .wav, .sf2 and AKAI fulfils my personal needs. When it comes to parting with my cash than it is about my needs, not yours or anyone elses. I don;t think that makes me "sound silly". On the contrary, I think it is silly to spend money on stuff you don't need or use simply so that you can score points or show off about your gear.

Come on man, I corrected you concerning Vsampler. What you've just stated is more a function of Reason, than of NN-XT. Don't misunderstand me, I know as well as the next man that Reason is totally unique in regards to it's routing abilities.

Actually it was a genuine question. I don't know if NN-XT/Reason is unique in this way or not, although I belive it may be. Also you can't seperate whether it is NN-XT or Reason that works this way, because the two are inseperable, as well you know .

So are you saying that if I bought a more advanced sampler it wouldn't actually do this stuff in a VST environment?

You just need a little perspective on the matter of trying to make pointless comparisons.

Not me - I've been agreeing all along that the comparissons don't wash. But the topic of the thread is to try and draw some comparissons - or contrasts - where they exist. Reason's soundbank, sample set, modular routing, etc are totally in a different league from FL's. That is one contrast between the two programs which the original post was presumably trying to establish.

[headquest]

I have Power Tools for Reason 2.5 but haven't gotten enough time to read it extensively. But there's lots about modulations and CV/Gate usage. It's a good book.

Thanks for a helpful tip Braj

[DHR53]

I've completed hundreds of songs in Reason... Wow... I thought they were songs, anyway?? Thanks for pointing out to me I was wrong...

[braj]

I've completed hundreds of songs in Reason... Wow... I thought they were songs, anyway?? Thanks for pointing out to me I was wrong...

Yeah, I never understand when people say you can't finish a song in Reason.

[r2101]

hmmmppfff...
about that song finishing thing in reason...
i always thought it was about the user and creativity and not only about tools... and reason & floops are tools. some like reason more - others prefer floops...
but finishing songs has nothing to do with cubase, logic, reason, buzz, psycle or modplug let alone floops ....

and finishing a song has nothing to do with the number of different synths & fx units...

this is gettin to the same level as the old discussion about which computer was better...amiga vs atari st...

[bill fusion]

Apples and oranges,,ibm and mac,,,,fl and reason
The problem comapring the 2 is the factthey are different in nasture and concept even though they are for making music. The one question to ask is where do you see youself in future. FL had been a computer music program, where reason is a HARDWARE simulator, just like rebirth. Ther is astudio in England that using reason too teach hardware studio basics because of it. Reason since it is close evrything is going to work together, unlike FL where I keep reading about people needing advice to do do things in Fl. NOw with FL you can do things that even most standard sequence CAN'T do. Importing midi files, wav files , dxi, vsti, mp3. Also running in sequence, song or freerun. The best way to decide is try the demos and also plan on what yu want to do.
Me I love the way FL can conbine did ,wav and such together ALThough it is not primary VSTi. If I was going to buy I would probally get Fl but the some day get reason because it is dam good too

[Highvoltage]

one question. can you send midi controller data in FL to a VST?? i couldnt find it. just its internal shit (cutoff, resonance...)

[ceenda]

one question. can you send midi controller data in FL to a VST?? i couldnt find it. just its internal shit (cutoff, resonance...)

I think so.

Add the VST you want to FL Studio. In the top-right of the VST wrapper window, look for the PORT led. Set it to whatever you want. Keep it at 0 if you want, but make sure you're not using port 0 for anything else.

Now, add a MIDI Out generator. In the PORT box, set it to 0 (or whatever you set your VST port to).

Play your keyboard, click in the piano roll etc. to make sure that your VST is receiving the MIDI okay.

Now, you should also have 8 rotation buttons in the MIDI out plugin dialog box. Right click on any of them and you'll be able to choose a CC# or a channel to send to the VST.

You might need to read the VST docs to find out what CCs it accepts.

headquest: Just been playing around with Reason as a Re-Wire slave to FL Studio. Instantly solves the problem of my not liking Reason's sequencing. Re-Wire is a pretty sweet solution. I can see why you use Reason frequently as an instrument rack, it's very easy to set up.

Does Re-Wire save all the Reason settings for the Host app as well? Or do you have to save in both the Host and the Client?

[in the voice of Comic Shop guy from Simpson's]
"help!... wallet... slipping... out of pocket"