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BONES · Post by **BONES** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:28 am

The following quote has been stolen from x_bruc's most recent thread in Instruments:

dystonia_ek wrote:industrial [meaning old-style, TG/SPK sort of universe, not that disco stuff that record companies have been selling as 'industrial' since the late 80s]

Do you mean the type of music that SPK and memebers of TG were doing since the late '80's? If the bands who define a genre move on, why shouldn't the genre evolve with them? They nearly all moved on - SPK, Cabaret Voltaire, Die Krupps, etc, etc. Why should a genre be cast in stone from its inception? Surely if there is a concerted movement towards a particular style from those acts who helped define it, then the genre can expand to incorporate that, can't it?

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:34 am

If genres didn't evolve, we would still be hitting rocks together for music

tkmattson · Post by **tkmattson** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:38 am

BONES wrote:The following quote has been stolen from x_bruc's most recent thread in Instruments:
dystonia_ek wrote:industrial [meaning old-style, TG/SPK sort of universe, not that disco stuff that record companies have been selling as 'industrial' since the late 80s]
Do you mean the type of music that SPK and memebers of TG were doing since the late '80's? If the bands who define a genre move on, why shouldn't the genre evolve with them? They nearly all moved on - SPK, Cabaret Voltaire, Die Krupps, etc, etc. Why should a genre be cast in stone from its inception? Surely if there is a concerted movement towards a particular style from those acts who helped define it, then the genre can expand to incorporate that, can't it?

Who needs Genres?

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:15 am

Chase wrote:If genres didn't evolve, we would still be hitting rocks together for music

Yes, Hiphop is very popular these days.

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:22 am

deastman wrote:
Chase wrote:If genres didn't evolve, we would still be hitting rocks together for music
Yes, Hiphop is very popular these days.

dystonia_ek · Post by **dystonia_ek** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:08 am

BONES wrote:The following quote has been stolen from x_bruc's most recent thread in Instruments:
dystonia_ek wrote:industrial [meaning old-style, TG/SPK sort of universe, not that disco stuff that record companies have been selling as 'industrial' since the late 80s]
Do you mean the type of music that SPK and memebers of TG were doing since the late '80's? If the bands who define a genre move on, why shouldn't the genre evolve with them? They nearly all moved on - SPK, Cabaret Voltaire, Die Krupps, etc, etc. Why should a genre be cast in stone from its inception? Surely if there is a concerted movement towards a particular style from those acts who helped define it, then the genre can expand to incorporate that, can't it?

To clarify my point, they should evolve. More frequently they devolve. The artists you mentioned took the sound backward towards conventional music for the most part. I should have maybe used other examples of people who got their start in that time period and continued to push the approach further, eliminating genre boundaries in the process. I'd point at Etant Donnes, Whitehouse, The Hafler Trio, Zoviet-France, Merzbow, John Duncan, Francisco Lopez, Organum, The New Blockaders, and Nurse With Wound as examples of people who have continued to push forward out of the pigeonhole. Certain others have managed to incorporate traditional elements without commercialising (Coil, Current 93, Death in June, Boyd Rice/Non), and there are a number of people still finding new variations within the original territory without succumbing too much to cliche (IRM/Skin Area, Genocide Organ/Anenzephalia, Con-Dom, Grey Wolves, Haus Arafna/Galakthorro).
The industrial 'movement', if it could ever really have been called that, was never about a particular aesthetic so much as a particular approach to process and content. A look at the influences cited by the original artists of the period will reveal that the primary inspirations and motivations came from areas outside the realm of music completely. The definition of 'industrial music' as a style was a result of the loose efforts of critics at first, followed by distributors (conservative-minded outsiders, in other words), to categorise an area of expression that actively sought to avoid being pigeonholed, though the term came from a sarcastic remark made by Monte Cazzaza in the late 70's as a slogan for TG's newly founded label. It was then picked up by the music industry at large and applied to a sort of approach that was very apart conceptually (i.e. concessions to popular taste for the sake of a wider audience, the development of a 'star system', and increasing distance between artists and their listeners). I would argue that as a genre tag it's basially meaningless at this point, since, seen in its original context, it is true that most music that actually tags itself as 'industrial' isn't, and also that all music that is manufactured and distributed according to a business model IS, in the purest sense of the word.
Personally I could care less about genres... all that stuff is meaningless. I was self-consciously tagging my work as 'industrial' when I began in 1984, but that was a long time ago. My response in the other thread was meant to clarify something to avoid confusion. I normally don't classify what I do at all based on sound - it's all about what's below the surface.

Don't know if this clears things up or confuses them further.

And @Chase, I still bang rocks together sometimes. Haven't found a VSTi that'll do it for me yet.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm

tkmattson wrote:Who needs Genres?

People who have never heard of you before and may not have the means to listen to your music at the time. e.g. reading magazine reviews. I have never understood why people have a problem with other peole trying to describe their music in terms that might actually mean something to potential listeners. If someone talks about "pop" I know I will have no interest. If they talk about "Death Metal" it might be good for a laugh. Etc, etc. If they tag something as industrial, it may not tell me anything specific except that it is possible that I might be interested in hearing some of it.

CypherOne · Post by **CypherOne** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:50 pm

agreed.

The music I (try to) make wouldn't exist but for evolution of genres.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:52 pm

This is becoming quite the habit, young man. Should we be concerned?

clueless · Post by **clueless** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:53 pm

because they've been naughty

CypherOne · Post by **CypherOne** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:59 pm

BONES wrote:This is becoming quite the habit, young man. Should we be concerned?

nah, it's okay, I still like people.

clueless · Post by **clueless** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:04 pm

BONES wrote:This is becoming quite the habit, young man. Should we be concerned?

it's ok BONES, he just wants a go of yer bra

intel · Post by **intel** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:44 pm

BONES wrote:People who have never heard of you before and may not have the means to listen to your music at the time. e.g. reading magazine reviews. I have never understood why people have a problem with other peole trying to describe their music in terms that might actually mean something to potential listeners.

but if you're changing the meaning of the term being used, how does that adequately convey your sound to potential listeners?

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:50 pm

The fact that genre's DO evolve is reason enough to make me think that genre's useless beyond cataloging.

foosnark · Post by **foosnark** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:22 pm

I'm glad industrial in particular has evolved the way it has -- outward, pushing against and through boundaries. Even pop has been influenced by industrial.

Individual groups certainly have evolved -- take Front Line Assembly for instance. While it could easily be argued they've passed their peak, they're still going and still making decent albums. I don't think they would be if everything they proudced sounded like Convergence...

Why Shouldn't Genres Evolve?