Simple tests to compare M:M and MMV

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Ok, apparently there are many threads out there that play the "king of the Moog Hill" drama. Some ppl speaking are obviously very knowledgeable on analog synths, while some others... are less informed :help: .

I am in between. I didn't work on M:M (apart from the Melohman concept) and didn't have any experience on the subject before doing Ohm Force. Thus I have learned a bit in the process.

I start this thread because I feel I could clarify some points raised so far. Of course, I am bloody biased and worse, I am not the most informed one. But I am pretty sure every dev involved in the match up will read this thread so if you ask "advanced" questions, we could get some "advanced" answers at least from GForce side, and hopefully from Arturia's side too.

For now, there are a few common infos I would like to spread for everyone interested to evaluate the differences (on the pure emulation side - the extra function side being apparently better understood).

*Default patches*
M:M demo default patch has been obviously designed to show the differences with MMV demo default one - it's the same thing. The funny thing is that from this comparison some people seems to think that it proves MMV better bass... Apparently those ppl fall in the good old "play it louder" commercial trap (a classic in some guitar amp stores).

To evaluate the difference, load both demos and feed them with the same continuous note. Then go to your mixer and compare VU meter, and especially peak.

Now, raise M:M gain until its peaks matches MMV's peak (or lower MMVs one). Solo one then the other. See ? Now you do compare the synths, instead of comparing gain settings...

Note also how M:M generates a more consistent loudness. This is important even if you're not interested in exact replication of the original, because this is typically what makes the Minimoog one of synth that fits the best in a mix.

From that test there are more advanced geeky test you can do (we certainly did, starting by Minimoog vs M:M) but I don't extrapolate here. The main point is that M:M deliver more loudness for the signal than MMV and as much as a MiniMoog, which is a must for such an emulation.

*filters*
From that point, why not to compare filters ? Just set both synths to their max sustain level in the filter enveloppe, to hear the filters at a mid range constant cutoff... This would allow to evaluate how both can shine in the mix.

Now, it's time to be mercyless :troll:. Shut down all osc but first one on both synths. Rise emphasis to the max... Now play with cutoff. Hear the difference ?
Now imagine that each time both synths will play a patch with emphasis and an enveloppe, the same difference will exist...

CPU usage
CPU usage varies on a lot of things. For instance, MMV CPU usage is note dependant : higher notes takes more CPU. Thus a comparision can be relevant as long as both synths are emulating the same settings and are playing something you could actually play.

First thing is to make sure you compare MMV in soft clip mode (no soft clip having no equivalent in M:M).

Second, let's take that copycat starting patch again. Then set both synths in polyphonic mode, set 8 voices, play eight keys. Check CPU...

Another way of evaluating CPU usage is to check out modulation. Still having your eight note playing, use both synths matrix to put an LFO on the cutoff. Check the CPU usage variations...

OK, enough for now. Some ppl will certainly find all of this very boring... But we have put so much time in M:M (in the meantime, Arturia did release MiniMoog V, CS-80, Moog Modular II, Arp 2600 V and more...) that we feel crucial that at least people evaluate our work in fair condition. It's no need to be a tech geek to do so. Just check out VU meter to start with :P

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OK, enough for now. Some ppl will certainly find all of this very boring... But we have put so much time in M:M (in the meantime, Arturia did release MiniMoog V, CS-80, Moog Modular II, Arp 2600 V and more...) that we feel crucial that at least people evaluate our work in fair condition.
Boring indeed. If it's good it's good, there's no need to go any further.

You 'd have saved yourself all this comparison hassle by releasing something else rather than investing your time and fine technology in a replication which, any advanced it might be, will always call for comparisons.

No hard thoughts, but you and the company you are working at used to be involved in projects which were way less common.

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Boring indeed. If it's good it's good, there's no need to go any further.
:lol:
Its KVR here. Forum about virtual instrument. A place where mainly people comes to discuss what's good in the field.
You 'd have saved yourself all this comparison hassle by releasing something else rather than investing your time and fine technology in a replication which, any advanced it might be, will always call for comparisons.
All plugin get compared to others, or to hardware, even when not an emulation. Nothings new here... Apart that for once some points are less subjective than usual.
No hard thoughts, but you and the company you are working at used to be involved in projects which were way less common.
I fell you're a bit unfair with us. We did Minimonsta:Melohman precisely to show that an emulation could at the same time comes with major innovation. Did you try the Melohman octave, and if yes, do you feel that there are a lot of things around that can bring you that kind of sounds ?

BTW, sorry to have bored you. Thus I am curious... If bored, why did you read it ?

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I wouldnt bother trying to justify your product by putting all these tech details and test out here. I find a lot of the tech stuff extremely dull, and care very little for such things. If i like the sound of something, i use it. If 3 products sound similar, i pick the best suited to me, the one i think sounds best.

No offence to you intended on this subject, i just feel sometimes ppl get so mixed up in the tech details, they forget that its all about music....and how it sounds :wink:

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Since we've already had 2 detractors in this thread, along with a score of other "who cares?" responses in other threads, I'll say that I'm very interested in reading a technical breakdown of the differences between the emulations.

That's not to say it makes any difference to me; I don't particularly care for Moog emulations, and won't be buying one anytime soon. If I did, it would be M:M, almost entirely for the second M, rather than the first.

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I totally agree. People this thread is for those who care about the tech side and differences. If you don't, please don't even bother posting. Let's stay on topic here.

Now back on topic, I have the Minimax and I love it but I wish I could find a native solution equally good. Aside from bass sounds which I use almost exclusively on the Minimax, I'm very impressed with the M:M. Have you guys made any comparisons with the Minimax yet. I couldn't find any patches on the Monster that sounded bigger than my patches on the Max. Can you give us tips for getting more bass out the Monster or provide us with your own bass tweaked presets for us? I'm gonna try some of your settings when I come home tonight. Let me know of any other tests you'd like me to do for Minimax comparisons if you guys don't have access to one. You can contact me privately if you prefer. Nice thread by the way...
L8ter Oscill8ters!

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I think this stuff is important because MMV and MM are Emulations, not just a generic VA synths. RedForce points make perfect sense to me. I think the best thing to do would be to post the .fxp patches that demonstrate differences, better or worse.
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM

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I like reading this stuff to be honest. I find it quite interesting.
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(such a dork) me too :D

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I think the best thing to do would be to post the .fxp patches that demonstrate differences, better or worse.
You really don't need that - it's dead simple. Just install both demo and play with the default patch of both - that's the same settings.

Apparently my bad english makes it sounds technical but it's actually very basic recommandation. It's just about setting gain and playing with cutoff...

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Now back on topic, I have the Minimax and I love it but I wish I could find a native solution equally good. Aside from bass sounds which I use almost exclusively on the Minimax, I'm very impressed with the M:M. Have you guys made any comparisons with the Minimax yet. I couldn't find any patches on the Monster that sounded bigger than my patches on the Max. Can you give us tips for getting more bass out the Monster or provide us with your own bass tweaked presets for us? I'm gonna try some of your settings when I come home tonight. Let me know of any other tests you'd like me to do for Minimax comparisons if you guys don't have access to one. You can contact me privately if you prefer. Nice thread by the way...
I didn't make test by myself but Ivory did. Anyway, it would be educating to add it to the comparison.

What would be nice would be to set up your Minimax with the same settings of MMV and M:M demos default patch. Then you could make some samples of the same part (one single note at mac velocity ?) with all three PI, normalise them all and post them (we could possibly host them...).

Unfortunately, we don't have the Minimoog with us - AFAIK Dave has it now. Maybe he could complete the whole thing ?

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you should normalize by RMS instead of by peak.
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM

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Red_Force wrote: *Default patches*
M:M demo default patch has been obviously designed to show the differences with MMV demo default one - it's the same thing. The funny thing is that from this comparison some people seems to think that it proves MMV better bass... Apparently those ppl fall in the good old "play it louder" commercial trap (a classic in some guitar amp stores).
Whoever tweaked/juiced those patches must be really kicking himself. Forgot to make it louder than the MMV, DAMN!

Seriously, it's a stretch to believe everyone that prefers the MMV does so because it's a little louder, come on!

MinMonsta is an excellent product and I wish I could afford it right now!

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crimsontider wrote:Seriously, it's a stretch to believe everyone that prefers the MMV does so because it's a little louder, come on!
It's really not a stretch - you'd be suprised how many people say stuff in the FL forums about their samples not sounding as good in FL, just because FL defaults the volume of it's sampler channels to 78% to help newbies from clipping :)
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smart wrote:
crimsontider wrote:Seriously, it's a stretch to believe everyone that prefers the MMV does so because it's a little louder, come on!
It's really not a stretch - you'd be suprised how many people say stuff in the FL forums about their samples not sounding as good in FL, just because FL defaults the volume of it's sampler channels to 78% to help newbies from clipping :)
Agree. I misread, he did infact say "some people"
not "everyone".

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