It's about the workflow

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I've been giving eXT's expanding features a semi-honest try for the deeper features lately, but I can't seem to give it a FULLY honest try because I'll get 'so' far, and then try to do something that should be a few mouseclicks, and I can't figure it out.

So, in despair I give up before giving it a truly good run-through.

An example:

I've been using eXT (VSTi version) to slice up and re-render some beats. So, I load the beatslicer up, hack it up, and export the MIDI to Tracktion. Within Tracktion, I render the new loop.

It's not too painful, and it works well. But what I'd rather do is this:

1. Load my loop into eXT
2. Hack it up (auto detection with occasional fine-tuning)
3. Designate its new tempo
4. Drag it as an audio file into Tracktion, or for eXT sequencer users, even as an audio clip in the sequencer.

Because I understand the immensely more flexible nature of keeping it as a MIDI + eXT thing, I figured "there's got to be a better way of doing this" and sat down to try to figure it out.

Not that particularly easy. A long time ago, nF helped with using switches to alternate between loops, but for an entire song this was looking like it would prove cumbersome, so I abandoned it.

So what I figured was-- hey, hey... easy enough. The first loop occupies C -2 up to F -2. Why not just import the next loop and assign it from F# -2 onward?

I couldn't do it. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but what I'm saying is that it wasn't obvious to me how to do it. I couldn't even truly figure out what the point was of adding a new slicer if they were just going to occupy the same trigger keys. A new layer, sure, because it might be a multi-layered instrument patch. But a new slicer?

Then it occurred to me that there are only a finite number of keys to trigger slices. A few loops that are 20+ slices long, and your range would be eaten up in moments. Since they don't need to be velocity sensitive, that gives another 126 times the possible "storage areas".

So, in practice, loop 1 might take up C -4 to F -4 at velocity 1. Loop 2 might occupy C -4 to F -4 but at velocity 2. Loop 3 would be the C -4 to G -4, with the first notes at velocity 3, but the F# and G back at 1. This way, you'd fill in all possible options.

At the end of the day, the actual note and velocity settings aren't in the least bit important, but you'd be able to store a whole lot of loop information in one instance of eXT VSTi.

----

Regardless of the "feature request", there are a few problems inherent in the current setup -- namely, if you even CAN re-assign the notes, it's not obvious enough how to. The interface simply doesn't give enough clues. Next, new slicers 'layers' within the sampler should automatically assign different 'trigger' values, no matter what method is used.

Am I still the only person who every time he tries to do something more 'involved' in eXT feels like the interface is a complete mystery? I can't make music when I feel like I'm working on a science experiment. I just want to make music.

Jorgen, don't take this the wrong way-- I'm sure you're used to all kinds of whining users by now, and you seem to have infinite patience for it. ;) In no way does my whining change the fact that I see you as the hardest-working, most dedicated, and most responsive developer on all of KvR. :D

Greg
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Lunch Money wrote: Am I still the only person who every time he tries to do something more 'involved' in eXT feels like the interface is a complete mystery?
I hope 'yes' but I fear 'no' though I can't understand 'why' :wink:

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By the way, Jens, your efforts with me have not been wasted-- without your help, I wouldn't even still be trying, I would have relegated eXT to "swiss army knife" status for the cool included comps.

So a question, then... how would YOU do what I want to do (re-tempo a set of say... 12 different loops)? The functionality already exists. The code is all there. But it's still not possible to do it with anything resembling ease.

This is one case in which I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong.

Greg
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I'd probably simply use 12 instances of my 'sampler'-template ;-) :-)

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That doesn't fit my way of working. ;-) Though, actually-- where can I set each slicer and/or sampler to respond to a different MIDI channel? That'd give me a temporary (and band-aid [ie. poor]) solution.

Greg
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Lunch Money wrote:That doesn't fit my way of working. ;-) Though, actually-- where can I set each slicer and/or sampler to respond to a different MIDI channel? That'd give me a temporary (and band-aid [ie. poor]) solution.

Greg
:? if you use it in Tracktion I don't see the need for it - just put it on another track - or am I missing something? :?

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I'm not really sure I've understood everything you've written Lunch Money, but why not using layered velocities, just as you've described ?
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YES you can assign a different root note for each slicer...

YES you can play each slice from a different MIDI channel...

...IMHO you are wrong...in XT it's about FLEXIBILITY before WORKFLOW. ...although I have no issues with the workflow in XT...and even with a free version of Tracktion I can't bare to use it.
....so you see...everybody has different needs.


nF

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I just meant that my post is about workflow, not that eXT is about workflow. ;) I agree that the raison d'etre for eXT is flexibility. :D

Now-- like I already said, the things I want to do may already be possible (apparently according to the above posts, they are), but the effing interface doesn't make it at all obvious or clear how--

SO, responses in order:

Jens: because I don't want 12 tracks just because I happen to use 12 different loops within my song. It makes no sense to do it this way, even though it's possible. Plus, it requires loading 12 instances of eXT.

Noox: because I can't figure out where or how

NicFit: I don't see where or how, so although you've told me it's possible, you haven't told me where to make the necessary changes. I don't expect anyone to hold me by the hand, which is why I've already looked, but I can feel the frustration building each time I look at the slicer comp and don't see a single button or dialog box that relates to changing these parameters.

Of course everybody has different needs, but I think everyone can agree that an interface that is clear and doesn't require a manual (I don't think any of the existing user-created manuals cover this particular issue anyhow) is desirable.
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Lunch Money wrote: (I don't think any of the existing user-created manuals cover this particular issue anyhow) is desirable.
your absolutely right...I'm not sure it's covered anywhere....and even though it's pretty obvious to me....that's because I've been following the new XT features as they are added, which makes it very easy for me. I will post some screenshots in a little while to walk you through it. Caleb has been working on some updated docs...the problem is jorgen updates the features so often it's hard for the folks writing docs to keep up :)

give me about 30 minutes to feed the kids and I'll give you a half-assed walkthrough.

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Well, I guess each one will answer his own part :D

Think about the sampler's layers as containers holding containers holding containers... and so on just like a pyramid, from top to bottom.

Consider a Layer. When empty, you have access to a few parameters which are volume, pano, filter cut-off, lower key, upper key, lower velo and upper velo. All of those are going to set rules which will apply to everything you put inside.

So, in order to achieve your dreams, here's what you have to do :

1 - Right click the 'first level' layer --> 'Add sub sound' --> Layer.
2 - Set this 'second level' layer L.vel and U.vel to 127
3 - Right click it and 'Add sub sound' --> 'Slicer'. Slice your loop as you're used to do it.

Once done, repeat from step 1 replacing 127 in step 2 by 126, then 125, then 124... When finished, you may have something like :

Layer
.'- Layer (this one has L.& U.vel set to 127)
..'- Slicer
...'- Slice (whateveryouwant)
...'- Slice (whateveryouwant+1)
...'- Slice (whateveryouwant+2)
...'- and so on
.'- Layer (this one has L.& U.vel set to 126)
..'- Slicer
...'- Slice (whateveryouwant)
...'- Slice (whateveryouwant+1)
...'- Slice (whateveryouwant+2)
...'- and so on
.'- Layer (this one has L.& U.vel set to 125)
..'- Slicer
...'- Slice (whateveryouwant)
...'- Slice (whateveryouwant+1)
...'- Slice (whateveryouwant+2)
...'- and so on

(Periods represent spaces, cause KvR is not WYSIWYG :D )

Then, just as you guessed, entering the right velocity in a MIDI part will trigger the right loop.

:wink:

I'll let NicFit explain how to set the variable 'whateveryouwant' right after filling his family duties :lol:
Last edited by Noox on Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Guess I should have mentioned that I'm at the most recent stable version 1.29, not the bleeding-edge betas. ;) Don't know if that factors into anything. I see a lot of "BR--??" threads since 1.3's first beta, so I've avoided it.

A walkthrough would be great. If it's not too much of a hassle, here's what I'd like to do ideally:

- Slice up X number of loops in the eXT VSTi
- Use the MIDI clip of each inside of Tracktion, triggering the appropriate loop.

That's about it. I'm not too concerned about the method you'd use to do it, so long as it's possible. In other words, if it ends up that for "Loop 1" I need to use MIDI channel 1 and for "Loop 2" I need to use MIDI channel 3, that's fine. Whatever's the most seamless is the best.

Greg

[edit: Noox, we posted at the same time, I wasn't just ignoring you. ;) Appreciated, and I'll look into it! It's the setting of the velocity and the "(whateveryouwant)" that I haven't stumbled across yet.]
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Well, now they're visible. The missing link so far has been that I didn't know I had to embed each new slicer within a different sub-sound "layer". I was imagining that each new slicer also implied a new layer and I was looking for those settings.

NicFit-- you can save yourself some effort for now; I'll dick around with this a bit on my own and it might save you some time.

:D

Question -- Do I need to "SMF" each time or is there drag and drop? Do I need the newest beta for there to be drag and drop?

Another question-- Which of the eXT "skinning" tutorials and/or threads would be the most accessible for a total skinning newbie?

Greg
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Lunch Money wrote:Noox, we posted at the same time, I wasn't just ignoring you
What !? By giving this pathetic excuse, you're admitting having intentionally ignored me !? :o

Please, next time I'll try to help you, remind me not to do so, you ungrateful being !

My terrible revenge will be to completly waste your discovery pleasure. The slices root key can be set in the 'upper level' Slicer page. Just click the default 'C2' and drag up or down. I hope I've ruined your day now.

:lol: :hihi: :wink:
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AAARRRRRGGGHHHHH.....I just did 30 screenshots and wasted 30 minutes for nothing :x :x

:wink:

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