Simple tests to compare M:M and MMV

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Krim,

I do get your point about not wasting time into technical considerations that can keep you away from doing your music. It's a common trap that most ppl know here, talking/debating vs making music. And as this his a hot topic, it can prevents a lot of people from doing a lot of music... :P

Thus I have also learned the hard way that sound does matter, in the detail. I had that very old song with a neon bassline (was EARLY days ok ?) and the bass has never been able to get through the guitar without turning everything into mud. And let's not talk about Model E ok ?...

Then a bit like everyone I was using Pro 52... That was a step - it was so cool to have a usable emulation of something way too expensive for me !

Then I directly jumped onto the Oddity. Working with Chris & Dave has been so educative about learning... no, feeling in my guts why those classics were important and why. All of sudden I realised that on the music I was listening, the synth was sooo important. Production was a secondary matter. Oscillator and filters come first...

Anyway, I say all this because it's not something I could have figured out just by trying a demo. I can perfectly get the point of people saying "what ? Is that all this hype is about ? This dull sounding analog thing ?". Thing is, you start to get it only when you use them for real in your tracks. You see that this odd thin drone sound actually works very well in your song's bridge while the impressive sound FX of the most advanced latest synth is just too intrusive and messy with the mix. You realise that while not that impressive, the bassline all of a sudden shine naturally in the mix without the need of a shitload of postprocessing and mixing. You drive it into a distortion and immediately get a gratifying phat warm sound instead of bright mud...
More than all, you get the warmness you were starting to thing that computer music would always keep you away from.

Now, there is an historical reason for this.

Those classics _are_ instruments. I am 100% with Bob Moog on this - at the end of the day, it's not about requirement book, it's about what you do with it. The sound, the specificity, the limitations as much as the possibilities and what is easy to do and what kind of tricks it entices you to developp...

And not only are they instruments, but time proof instruments. It means so much. Those things have been created by very smart ppl from a different time/culture, with a different approach, and have provent to be convincing for musical use for decades - a hell of a quality proof. They bring something that the natural software instrument area doesn't generate by itself. There is so much to learn from them...

So we work hard to identify what we brings back from the past exactly, and why and how it shall work. That's a meaningfull job for a company like Ohm Force which usually try to project rather in the future - and people that criticise us about not doing something new should think about that IMO.

We know why we do it... and hope as much ppl as possible understand it as well.

Now, I honestly think that Minimonsta do a way, way better job than MMV about paying due respect to the instrument as it is and bring it in its better shape to the audience. This is quite normal actually considering how much more time we have spend on it (MMV was started way later and finished way way earlier). And I also think that at the end of the day users will have a solid benefits from that difference - that's why we have taken all the needed time to do this emulation...we were feeling it was needed.

I just want to convince ppl here that some aspects of the sound does matter, and that if you cover it with a "oh, if it's ok it's ok" or more generally a "a first superficial try is enough to make my longterm opinion" philosophy, you may miss something that can matter a lot to you. I mean, it's so easy to make sure the first notes you'll play with a demo sound impressive (that's why build in basic - less than free plugs - FX and arpegiator are with...), but making a solid good sounding daily synth is a complete different matter. You can't just rely on a first impression that is already largely subjective. You have to extrapolate a bit about what will be you're real way of using it, to see if it will really works that well for you.

Ok, way too long post, sorry. Overdiscussing things is bad for music... but underwatching them is bad as well.

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Man-Machine wrote:Ok, I made 3 wave files from the 3 softsynths. They were all recorded at the same time in Cubase with the same peak but normalized individually afterwards. I used the default patch for both synths and tried to match the sound on the Minimax. It's just a long held note at first C3 then C2. The files are 16 bit/44 Khz and about 1MB each. Who wants to host them?
We could do that, as long as it's done fairly :)
You can PM me if you want to.

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Red Force -

I would like to see you put your money where your mouth is.

If you are so sure this is the superior synth, let's hear a three way between Moog analog wav files, Minmonsta wav files and Minimoog V wav files.

Im sure you guys have the ways and means to do this.

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It's like I said in another thread, these are all great softsynths per se and you can do awsome music with them. The point is that they are marketed as emulations so OF COURSE such comparison needs to be made.
Kriminal wrote: Seriously, how many of you have a Moog sitting there that you can do an A/B test with?
You're right, you can't make comparisons based on vague memories from playing some friends Mini or a Moog sounds from albums I know the instrument was prominent.

Maybe I'm a spoiled brat here but I own/owned many of the classics including the Minimoog. I sold it after I got my Creamware card with the Minimax (also sold my Pro-One). I thought that was a decent enough emulation that I wouldn't need the original anymore. So now I use the Minimax as my benchmark for other softsynths.

Years ago I couldn't tell a difference between a tube and transistor amp or an Epiphone and Gibson Les Paul. When I first bought my real analogues I didn't notice the fuss either until later. It's something you get used to and develop with time spent with the instrument. It's when you take a step back after spending quality time with the real thing that you take notice. And the gap used to be huge in the past but now the is getting shorter and that's why we do these tests.

Kriminal wrote: Im aware its an emulation, im also aaware the MM goes a lot further than that.
Extra modulation, arpeggiators, polyphony, blah blah. That's all icing in the cake. You couldn't find a simpler synth. Restricted routing, no dedicated LFO, no dedicated 4 stage envelopes. So why do people like it so much then when there are so many other synths that can do some much more? Oscillators and Filters!!!


When you guys listen to these samples make sure you also put them through a spectrum analyzer. Loudness is not the only element here we need to consider but frequency response is also VERY important among others. If there's any other test you'd like to see let me know and I'll do it if I have the time. By the way, these are Minimax, MMV and M:M samples. Somebody has to add the real thing here since I don't have mine anymore...
Last edited by Man-Machine on Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
L8ter Oscill8ters!

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Well i've been testing MMV, M:M and MiniMax all this morning. i pick a patch on MiniMax that sounds great, disable any effects. Then i load M:M and MMV and match the knob settings with no further adjustment. Doing this, MiniMax and M:M have a fairly similar end sound (although MiniMax is still better) and MMV doesn't really sound like either of them.

i then tweak those same patches (mainly cutoff and emphasis, but some ADS as well - obviously switches is switches so i leave well alone) to take into account that the same knob setting doesn't necessarily translate from synth to synth and try and get them closer. i can get M:M close, but MMV just sounds so different - and not particularly good different.

i hope Man-Machine can host his comparison because i think it's quite obvious that MiniMax is still great (although it doesn't have the Meta-Patch feature - how about a standalone Meta-Unit using MIDI mapping - is that even possible?), M:M has a similar sound-range, though not quite as good as MiniMax, and MMV just sounds, well, not very exciting and completely nothing like the other two (and i hate that GUI - i could barely see what was happening under the knobs' shadows - it was like using my OSCar FFS).

Mr A

PS. If you get your examples hosted Man-Machine, can we have wavs, i really don't think MP3s are good enough for this kind of comparison.

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One thing where the M:M definately stomps on the MM V is the feedback. It feels quite natural and "alive" whereas the MM V is rather harsh and 'dry' somehow. It can of course be used to great effect too but I much prefere the 'thick, alive' M:M feedback.

Cheers!
bManic

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Mao has the files now. You'll have to wait until he posts the URL...
L8ter Oscill8ters!

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I can host if anyone needs it.

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Mr Arkadin wrote:i hope Man-Machine can host his comparison because i think it's quite obvious that MiniMax is still great (snip)
I hope so too, but mostly because if Man-Machine compares Minimonster:Melohman, Minimoog V, and MiniMax the thread could be titled...

M-M's MMax vs M:M vs MMV

... and that, my friends, would be a spectacle worth paying to see.

Mmmeffy

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Here they are:

http://www.groovecell.com/music/Mini1.wav

http://www.groovecell.com/music/Mini2.wav

http://www.groovecell.com/music/Mini3.wav

Look for my previous post on how these were recorded. I'm not gonna tell what's what for right now. I wanna hear some unbiased opinions first ;) With a spectrum analyzer and some good ears you can see the Mini3 sounds the biggest. With an oscilloscope you can see that the sawtooth on Mini2 is the only correct one, ascending...

PS: Thank Kriminal for hosting these files
L8ter Oscill8ters!

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I have a real Moog I can use to help with the tests if that helps...bear in mind they all sound a bit different though.

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Spaceman Sounds wrote:I have a real Moog I can use to help with the tests if that helps...bear in mind they all sound a bit different though.
Sure, why not? The sound used is the default patch on either MMV or M:M demo. Make sure you normalize it and it's a wave 16 bit/44 Khz file. PM Kriminal to host the file...
L8ter Oscill8ters!

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Im going to have to go with Mini 3. Sounds a little jucier, a little more life like.

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Kriminal wrote:
mao wrote:Kriminal:

It's an emulation ! ! !

Sounds good is not the key.

More it's sounds the same more it can be called emulation... It's so simple...
Im aware its an emulation, im also aaware the MM goes a lot further than that.

Seriously, how many of you have a Moog sitting there that you can do an A/B test with?

If the tests prove that neither sound like an original Moog, will you not buy them basd on that info only, or would you try them and see what they sound like?

Maybe i look at it a diff way to the rest of you :shrug:
Krim, I really like your music and I like other people's music at KVR. I wouldn't get drawn into this silly discussion because it just takes time away from creating music. (He says having got drawn in. :oops: )

I don't care if people make music using a washboard and some pots and pans as long as it sounds interesting. I really don't believe that most people here give two turds about whether the MM sounds more authentic than MMV. It's splitting hairs. As long as they sound good (and they both do) that's all that matters IMO. It seems to me that these types of threads turn into a promotional arena for devs and their fanboys trying to slag the opposition. So I say leave them to it.

I just hope no one from KVR will spend less than a moment on this petty arguement. I hope they'll carry on enjoying what both synths have to offer and make cool music instead. 8)

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Well, im not getting involved anymore (other than hosting files, cos im nice like that) i was just curious as to why ppl want to get o tech about everything. Its like only driving a car if youre a mechanic or something, utter crap really.

Anyway, im busy finishing a tune right now, and having a few cold beers :D

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