Incredible Guitar Tube Drives

[Sascha Franck]

when you show me your degree in electronics than you can attack my position.

This has got nothing to do with any sort of degree, all you have to do is just:
- listen and
- look at what is common sense/practice.

To clairify the vast majority of the desired tube distortion is derived from the pre-amp stage.

I never doubted that.

However it is not advised to push power tubes (but go ahead if you want) to the point of overdrive.

Adviced?
So, why in the world do those little VHTs exist?
Why would any rock band recording an album crank up their amps as hard as possible (to a certain amount at least)?
Why? Please tell me why!

It is much better (imo) to run a consistant power amp and tubes are extremely inconsistant.

In theory you're right. Tubes ARE inconsistent and you would allways prefer a reproduceable PA behaviour, no matter what the level is. That's why solid state amps *would* be great.
So much for the theory - it's just that it lacks of any common sense when it comes to "great" guitar sounds.

In theory, it was never meant that a guitar should sound distorted. Yet, Duane Eddy penetrated his speaker cones with a screwdriver because he liked the buzz.

In theory, it was never meant amps should distort. But, more or less by accident, early rockn rollers had to play big audiences without any further house PAs. So their VOX'es and whatever had to be cranked up.
And, even if in theory the VOX wasn't designed to saturate/distort, it just did - and these days it's one of *the* famous guitar tones.

In theory, it was never meant preamps should distort.
Yet, Mr.Clapton (at least he's somewhat known for this) cabled the speaker out (yes!) of a Fender Champ to his Marshall's guitar in.
After that the cultivation of preamp overdrive (back in those days basically done by stomp boxes) started.
In theory it was wrong though.

There goes all your theory!

That is why Marshall came out with hybrids

Yeah, the Valvstate ones - they were cheap and offered a relatively broad palette of sounds - that's why they were sold.
When have you seen/heard one of those in a top production? Right, never! Because based on "good" guitar sounds, they are utter shite. I owned one, so I know what I'm talking about. Nice working horse for small commercial gigs, pure POS for anything else.

But remember the one that was a solid state pre and a tube power amp (I forget the model, it was a head 30-35 watts)..it was to date probably the biggest flop in the history of Marshall...why do you suppose that is?

Easy: Because the preamp was shit. Utter shit. I tried one of those and couldn't believe.

You are not getting away with any of your nonsense theories just by these two examples - because they actually don't prove anything.

I will say that when you said your power tubes were not microphonic I kinda dismissed everything you said after that because that's not true. It may not be noticable but it is there. I don't think you really understand tubes and their attributes.

Now you're really talking more and more nonsense.
I KNOW that tubes are microphonic - but that has got NOTHING to do with them saturating.
If you really stay with that point, it's absolutely making no sense to continue this discussion, because that's utter nonsense.
And, no matter how you put it, on a well crafted tube amp, with well produced and well biased tubes, there should be close to no microphony happening, not even when you knock on them tubes.

For me I want the same control over my sound at 1000 watts (if I ever needed it) that I have at 10 watts.

Yeah, but you seem to get away fine with a sound I'd call mediocre at best. At least judging from the guitar sound on your tunes.

When I got my Marshall tube pre I got that monster Marshall tube power amp (it cost a fortune) and I didn't like it,

Again a fine example - not!
Those Marshall power amps were shite.
Very often the combination of preamp and extra poweamp doesn't work well.
The best sounds are coming from integrated solutions. A head or combo with pre- and poweramp, build to match each other fine.

The funny thing is there was a guy just like me when I was a stead fast tube fanatic and he said trust me you'll go solid state oneday...I guess if I ever see him I'll be eating some crow...

FWIW, I have never been a fanatic at all.
I have been trying almost everything.
the list of setpus I owned would probably be endless, here's just some of them:

- A straight JCM 800, along with some stomp boxes. A sound I TRULY miss.

- An enormous amount of rack based solutions, one of them running the first programmable tube head ever (by Dynacord), through some power load (Tom Scholz), then into some effects, a line mixer, a 2x200 solid state PA, etc etc etc. Most of those setups sounded shite because the stereo stuff messed it all up.

- 3 way setups of different sorts. Dry amp (a Boogie Mark II back then) running into some 2x12 enclosure, the splitted power amp signal running into a rack with all sorts of FX and then into a solid state stereo PA feeding 2 single 12" enclosures. That actually was a great setup, even with tons of effects you still had the dry sound - but the FOH dudes allways killed me ("Are you fuckíng crazy, 3 channels for the guitarist?"), plus it was tough carrying all that shit and cabling it.

- A whole bunch of smaller "convenience" amps, such as the Valvestate, a Fender Super 75 (?!? I don't even remember that one), etc.

- A VOX AC30 with some stompboxes. Great sound too, but I sold it because I wanted something more modern. Call me an idiot.

- A fullrange system, running a rack, a Mesa Quad preamp, a few effects and finally some ADA amp cab simulator for the dry part of the sound, all that running into some stereo solid state PA and some 12/3 fullrange cabs. I was thinking fullrange would do great with both acoustic guitars and MIDI guitars as well. Just that any plain guitar sound was shit.

- A Marshall 3 channel amp. Don't even remember the name - their first MIDi switchable model. Full tube, but boy was the sound shite.

As you can see, I've fooled around with about any possible combination of amps and configurations.
Now, what am I back at these days? A Twin and a Boogie Mark IV (used alternatively, but I will sell the Twin soon), running together with a few stompboxes.
I will probably expand the Boogie setup a bit this year (MIDI switching and a small rack), but that's about it.

And, to bring things back on topic a bit: I am making extensive use of the Boogie's power amp features. Tweed mode actually isn't all that bad, especially for bluesy stuff.

[Sascha Franck]

FWIW, one shouldn't forget that speakers do a great deal in terms of sound as well.
With tube PAs the interaction between PA and speakers is even greater.

Yeah, all that adds to inconsistencies too.
A tube rig will never sound the same, it will sound (sometimes totally) different each time you turn it on, it will sound (sometimes totally) different at different levels too. But usually it will sound great.
Solid state amps sound the same all the time. Mediocre that is.

[herodotus]

I play drums.

You hit'em with a stick and they make a noise.

You hit'em just a certain way they sound better.

You turn the snares off and they don't rattle.

How simple life is.

For a drummer.

[Hink]

Yeah, the Valvstate ones - they were cheap and offered a relatively broad palette of sounds - that's why they were sold.

no not the valvestate, back maybe late 70's early 80's before the second bigges flop the mosphet, they had a solid state preamp and a tube poweramp. The fact that you are confused about which amp I'm talking about is testament to what I speak of it's failure.

COOkie is right, I spend way more time worrying about the signal from when it's picked up at the strings to it's delivery to the power amp. Now when I have gone to the trouble to create the sound I can work with best (which is very broad, the marshall pre is sweet, but old and tired) I don't want an inconsistancy that I have no control over to taint it. Thus a completely solid, clean, overpowered power amp is the best choice for me.

BTW I am one of those guitarists who finds the sweet spot and stays there..

[Hink]

Solid state amps sound the same all the time. Mediocre that is.

I agreed with you right up until then, that is so subjective...

[Hink]

The 4203 Artist was introduced in 1986 and discontinued in 1991. The 3203 is the mini stack head version of the 4203. Don't confuse this amp with the older Artiste's from the 1970's. The preamp is solid state, only the power amp uses tubes.

that's the amp I was speaking of...it took me a while to find it...I was beginning to think I imagined it...anyhow it was garbage...

[finnbio]

saturation and distortion are two different things. A power amp in any system is not imo suppose to color, distort. The concept of of a master volume was to cure that problem...that is precisely why you have master volume knobs. I assume many of you have never owned a plexi without a master. There is gonna be distortion with any stage to an extent. But many guitarits myself included bailed out on tube poweramps because they are inconsistant ( my boogie needed it's own circut) Power tubes take an amazing amount of power to run as opposed to pre-amp tubes. As a result of being high voltage they are by nature microphonic. Like backlash in machine heads it's a physical law. Any variation in power even the one volt drops will cause highend signals to get muddy ( the transformer mutiplies the voltage to run the power tubes one volt mutiplied can get probmatic)...again a fact of power tubes which are nothing like pre-amp tubes in any way. The pre-amp tubes are meant to deliver and shape the signal and the power amp is meant to boost it...common sense.

That's why on the back of my pre-amp is a switch for three output levels SO YOU DO NOT OVERDRIVE THE POWER AMP..those three choices are +4,-10 and -20 db. Do you want to take a guess why there is only a slight boost of of 4 db but two negatives of 10 amd 20 (which the difference between them if you understand the scale is friggan huge)? The answer is simple and common sense, IT IS VERY BAD TO OVERDRIVE POWER TUBES.( you hinted what I was aying was bad for your tubes and what you are saying truly is) Power amps are just a stage in an amp that boosts, on most pre/power combos you have absolutely no control over the power amp because a tube pwoer amp is a basic circut and yes they saturate from microphonic tubes. To clear that up cause I picture someone talking to their tubes, that does not mean it's a microphone it means it picks up some of the sound and reprsocesses it, that's what gives tube power amps their good sound...

Comparing a real amp to software and generic terms they use is not very accurate...

Now remember I started this saying the good sound of tube distortion is derived in the pre-amp and by that I mean the majority...go find any credable link, article or what have that says different please....and if you're ever in this area please stop by and plug in to my hybrid, in you want to feel some kick. Hybrid amps are very common though there are not as many hybrids that are solidstate pres and tube power amps...that's because the vast majority of the tube sound is in the pre-amp

Hink,
Saturation = inability to properly reproduce the waveform when driven too hard = soft clipping (for tubes) = introduction of additional harmonics = DISTORTION.

Saturation = Distortion!!!

Master volumes were introduced so you could get distortion at lower volumes, not because it is bad to drive the power amp

Cheers
Alex

[finnbio]

Boutique amp manufacturers like THD have had great success with amps like the univalve, which alloes you to switch power amp tubes to get different saturation characteristics.

Boutique amps are known for class A tubes...that is the same thing with hi-fi amps...

Hink,

now this statement really makes me scratch my head... There is no such thing as a class A tube. There are class A circuits (as in the Matchless or Vox) AC30, but that's a different matter.

Cheers
Alex

[finnbio]

BTW: There are examples of great amps with a solid state preamp and a tube power amp stage. The Music Man RD series (RD110, RD112) in the eighties was built like that, and so was the Roland Bolt 60.

A great source to read up on overdrive/distortotion is the izotope trash manual "Trash receipes for guitar": http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/t ... Guitar.zip
Ignore the preset files for the Trash plugin an go for the PDF file..

And there it says:"... For example, most guitar amps have multiple stages of distortion and saturation. A preamp tube, often a 12AX7, provides a first stage of saturation. This is later followed by power tube saturation (6L6, EL34). Preamp distortion has a "buzzy" sound to it while power tubes have a crunch."

These guys make a living researching this stuff.

Again, you cannot compare a tube radio to a guitar amplifier. In a HiFi situation, distortion is to avoided at all cost. In a guitar amp it is desired, on both pre- and power amp levels!

Cheers
Alex

[Sascha Franck]

Talking about tube radios:
Several years ago (must've been mid-end eighties or so) I saw a danish band (I think it was Anne Linnet band, but I'm not sure) on a festival.
The guitar player had the most kickass blues guitar tone I've ever heard until that moment.
Now, what he was running was a (apparently modified) tube radio! I didn't have the occasion to talk to him, but it pretty much looked like as if the mic'ed signal of the radio was running into his floor board/rack combo to add further FX and then being amplified through some funny looking combo thingy (not sure again, I think it was some sort of H|H amplifier).
No kidding, that was a tone to die for!

Later on I've been plugging my axes into some tube radio as well, defenitely not a bad sound, but I think impedances weren't matching all too well - plus, the damn thing had freaking weird tubes that I couldn't replace (at least back then I had no clue where to get them from).
So I never managed to get this thing running in any useable way, let alone hooking it up to any further devices, but it surely sounded somewhat promising. Power amp saturation at living room levels, yay!

I'm still thinking about something like that for recording, but I'll have to find a suitable tube radio first - preferably with tubes still available, quite a tough thing (I'd bet they'd wear out quicker than anything, assuming I'd really squeeze everything out of them).

[Hink]

saturation and distortion are two different things. A power amp in any system is not imo suppose to color, distort. The concept of of a master volume was to cure that problem...that is precisely why you have master volume knobs. I assume many of you have never owned a plexi without a master. There is gonna be distortion with any stage to an extent. But many guitarits myself included bailed out on tube poweramps because they are inconsistant ( my boogie needed it's own circut) Power tubes take an amazing amount of power to run as opposed to pre-amp tubes. As a result of being high voltage they are by nature microphonic. Like backlash in machine heads it's a physical law. Any variation in power even the one volt drops will cause highend signals to get muddy ( the transformer mutiplies the voltage to run the power tubes one volt mutiplied can get probmatic)...again a fact of power tubes which are nothing like pre-amp tubes in any way. The pre-amp tubes are meant to deliver and shape the signal and the power amp is meant to boost it...common sense.

That's why on the back of my pre-amp is a switch for three output levels SO YOU DO NOT OVERDRIVE THE POWER AMP..those three choices are +4,-10 and -20 db. Do you want to take a guess why there is only a slight boost of of 4 db but two negatives of 10 amd 20 (which the difference between them if you understand the scale is friggan huge)? The answer is simple and common sense, IT IS VERY BAD TO OVERDRIVE POWER TUBES.( you hinted what I was aying was bad for your tubes and what you are saying truly is) Power amps are just a stage in an amp that boosts, on most pre/power combos you have absolutely no control over the power amp because a tube pwoer amp is a basic circut and yes they saturate from microphonic tubes. To clear that up cause I picture someone talking to their tubes, that does not mean it's a microphone it means it picks up some of the sound and reprsocesses it, that's what gives tube power amps their good sound...

Comparing a real amp to software and generic terms they use is not very accurate...

Now remember I started this saying the good sound of tube distortion is derived in the pre-amp and by that I mean the majority...go find any credable link, article or what have that says different please....and if you're ever in this area please stop by and plug in to my hybrid, in you want to feel some kick. Hybrid amps are very common though there are not as many hybrids that are solidstate pres and tube power amps...that's because the vast majority of the tube sound is in the pre-amp

Hink,
Saturation = inability to properly reproduce the waveform when driven too hard = soft clipping (for tubes) = introduction of additional harmonics = DISTORTION.

Saturation = Distortion!!!


Cheers
Alex

I stand corrected...but I still say that a solid state power amp sounds better quieter and more accurate then tube and the fact can't be ignored that there are very few companies making tube poweramps...A whole crapload of companies sell gear with pre-amp tubes. So I guess you guys better tell them they have it all wrong. That is my point over driving (not clipping, see my defination above) are not the samething. Clipping can be acheived with overdrive but it clipping can exist independently.

I do not want any clipping occuring I can't control. With a power amp pre-amp combo I can con control the input to the power amp. Of course I want more then a one sound amp and truthfully the list of amps I had gave me ear fatigue. They still all sounded within the same sound. And that did not include a nice crystal clean (like a JC120) sound at higher volumes.

Master volumes were introduced so you could get distortion at lower volumes, not because it is bad to drive the power amp

so why was the power soak known for cooking amps? (marshall still makes the power brake but they're junk imo). It was said earlier that the good sound comes from turning up the poweramp and now you're saying what I was saying. The master is there so you don't have to crank the amp. A big part of that is the fact that tubes running at high volumes do not last as long,. That is why power soaks were not that popular, they ate tubes. So again I say if you are turning down the pre-amp out (which is what a master does) then how are you overdriving the power tubes? Simple you're not...that has been my whole point the DISTORTION that we seek as guitarists from tubes, 95% of if is from the 12ax7's. (the other 5% gets lost in hiss)

But one thing...my amp is silent and clean when loud I spent years deciding what the best was for me and this is it. Just like I spend a lot of time making sure the sound out of my guitar is great. Afterall garbage in and grabge out...and like I said I don't want a variable added in after I have gone through that. FWIW I use EMG's for low impedance (quiet), Monster cable and monster speaker cable to my cab...not a coax cable like many people do (that is bad).My cab is wired down to 4 ohms and stereo, after all that my pweramp should be nuetral. See I also don't want a one sound amp (like a Marshall 800, I love them, best Marshall imo, but not much variety to work with, or atleast not like mine with three channels, a five band active eq, stereo fx loops). I use very little effects (listen to my music you see that it's distortion and a little delay) but an exciter with a solid state poweramp gives me a better sound (and doesn't get as washed out like most tube amps do by hiss). I suppose it could be that a tube power amp would work too, I haven't found the one yet. Maybe the boogie platunumears was talking about because I assume the presence controls make up for highend lost due to "brownouts" or inadequate power sources...but maybe I should rethink that too because most clubs have adequate power for bands....not..

[Hink]

BTW distortion is a result of saturation...but saturation doesn't always mean distortion, that is what I meant when I said the are not the same thing...you can use saturation with a tube compressor and you are not adding distortion...

[Hink]

Talking about tube radios:
Several years ago (must've been mid-end eighties or so) I saw a danish band (I think it was Anne Linnet band, but I'm not sure) on a festival.
The guitar player had the most kickass blues guitar tone I've ever heard until that moment.
Now, what he was running was a (apparently modified) tube radio! I didn't have the occasion to talk to him, but it pretty much looked like as if the mic'ed signal of the radio was running into his floor board/rack combo to add further FX and then being amplified through some funny looking combo thingy (not sure again, I think it was some sort of H|H amplifier).
No kidding, that was a tone to die for!

Later on I've been plugging my axes into some tube radio as well, defenitely not a bad sound, but I think impedances weren't matching all too well - plus, the damn thing had freaking weird tubes that I couldn't replace (at least back then I had no clue where to get them from).
So I never managed to get this thing running in any useable way, let alone hooking it up to any further devices, but it surely sounded somewhat promising. Power amp saturation at living room levels, yay!

I'm still thinking about something like that for recording, but I'll have to find a suitable tube radio first - preferably with tubes still available, quite a tough thing (I'd bet they'd wear out quicker than anything, assuming I'd really squeeze everything out of them).

I have an old Fischer hi-fi tube amp (mono) from around the early 50's...it's very noisey for hi-fi..but that's interference type noise. (and it has more hum then I like) Remember tube power amps mean large transformers, back then isolation wasn't what it is today. Transformers make noise, your guitar picks it up cause you know the 60 cycle hum deminishes as you get further from your amp. Older tube amps do pick that sound up sometimes...just a heads up..

[Lawnmower Of The Damned]

Hink, if you're after low impedance then you might want to check out some Bill Lawrence pickups, and perhaps the Q-filter. The man is a guitar legend, and his products are quite amazing.

For instance, the Q-filter is a knob that allows you to change the impedance of your pickups as you play. It beats the hell out of a "tone" knob!

Since Bill sells all of his products directly, there is no middle-man adding fees along the way. Thus, you'll find his prices to be very reasonable.

As a side note, the only place to buy Bill's products is directly from his website. There are a lot of imposter Bill Lawrence pickups, and even reputable music stores/chains have been fooled. If you don't buy it directly from Bill Lawrence, then it's probably not a Bill Lawrence.

Check his products out at: http://www.billlawrence.com

[Hink]

Hink, if you're after low impedance then you might want to check out some Bill Lawrence pickups, and perhaps the Q-filter. The man is a guitar legend, and his products are quite amazing.

For instance, the Q-filter is a knob that allows you to change the impedance of your pickups as you play. It beats the hell out of a "tone" knob!

Since Bill sells all of his products directly, there is no middle-man adding fees along the way. Thus, you'll find his prices to be very reasonable.

As a side note, the only place to buy Bill's products is directly from his website. There are a lot of imposter Bill Lawrence pickups, and even reputable music stores/chains have been fooled. If you don't buy it directly from Bill Lawrence, then it's probably not a Bill Lawrence.

Check his products out at: http://www.billlawrence.com

Yeah Bill Lawrence has been around a long time, maybe I could try out his pickups on my next guitar. But I gotta be honest, I really like EMG pickups and I'm real comfortable with them.

Now comes the part where all the purists will tell me everything that's wrong with active pickups...