KVR Audio

Vervil · Post by **Vervil** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:32 pm

egbert wrote:
heeb wrote:It's just a matter of getting all 0's and 1's right!
The chance of replicating a digital recording of an analog signal chain exactly by digital emulation is infinitessimal.
However, the chance of replicating a digital recording of an analog signal chain with inaudible differences by digital emulation is very much non-zero. My prediction is, that considering the current rate of progress in dsp, in 10 years or less, a simulated "tube"-amp will sound actually *better* than any real life tube amp.

I hope you are kidding or just want to prove your point no matter what because this sounds like "In time science will be able to make tomatos that taste more like tomato than real tomatos"

Ampsimulators are what their very name says: SIMULATION of a real thing. They can become eventualy so close to the real thing to sound very alike, but they cannot be better, because that means different, and then they are original, not simulations anymore. And then, what actually means "better"? Better for what? Better in whose opinion? Better according to whose taste?

Time and time again, it has been proven that it is possible to build tube amps that sound better than any previously existing models (Mesa Boogie, Soldano, Trainwreck, etc...).

Substantially wrong. It has be proven that it is possible to build tube amp that will sound different than currently available amps, and that can become fashionable and more appealing to wide audience than amps that are stadard on the market. If what you were saying was true, no one would use old Fenders or Marshalls because "there are new and better amps out there".

And: it is already totally possible to build a *transistor* amp that rivals and surpasses any tube amp out there: http://www.bluetoneamps.com

Surpasses in what way? All those people are telling that it sounds very alike tube amps, not better. Just by using logic, can non-tube amp sound more "tube alike" than real tube amp? You have strange way of thinking.

There will be always real thing, as people still more like to have stuff made of wood or stone or glass or some other more natural materials in their houses, than stuff made of plastic and sznthetic materials. Would you like more to wear shirt made of polyester or made of real cotton?
To have emulation of something, you need a real thing, and only reason for emulation to exist is that people like how real thing works. Tube amp sound we hear is not perfect, actually it is very unperfect and unpredictable, and that is very reason why it is hard to emulate it in software. Even if there would be emulations coming close to unrecognizable, (And I have no doubt it will happen at some point) it is dependent on evolution and popularity of real stuff, so real stuff will never be replaced at the end.

fritzman · Post by **fritzman** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:15 am

OK, I'm tired.

No, really tired. But I wanted to post here how excited I'm about the new kid (hopefully soon) on the block. This amp sim could be the one that brings my POD to rest.
Dushan, your track is really cool. Thanx for the EQed version.

I also like the DualPlex example, really cool. Especially the second part.

I made a shorty, too. Find all the faults in this track if you want to, I simply like what this thingy does. Very promising.

fritzman_on_Xmas_Tubey.mp3

All the best, FRitz

Vervil · Post by **Vervil** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:31 am

Rhythm guitars bit boomy here? Lead guitar sounds good

Dushan, your track is really cool. Thanx for the EQed version.

You're welcome

fritzman · Post by **fritzman** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:52 am

Vervil wrote:Rhythm guitars bit boomy here?

Yeah, what can you do when you're tired and the baby is sleeping?

Vervil wrote:Lead guitar sounds good

Cool you like it. Even with the old strings ...

All the best, FRitz

egbert · Post by **egbert** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:49 am

Lunch Money wrote:I think you overestimate the magic of it all, egbert.

Silence - or I will turn you into a newt!

If you read what I posted, I was merely addressing the "identical 1s and 0s" line be another poster. Good enough emulation is good enough emulation from my POV.

The idea that somebody will generate a wav file with millions of 24 bit samples which is bit for bit identical by another means is way beyond the "monkeys, typewriters and Complete Works of Shakespeare" scenario.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:06 am

@ egbert

@Vervil: you don't think they can grow tomatoes that are more tomato than tomato? It happens all the time.

Seriously!

It's conceivable that there can be an amp sim some day that will do what I wish they've been doing all along-- make a new sound that's unobtainable any other way, and is desirable for its own characteristics. This was mentioned in the AT2 thread, I believe, and I for one agree with it.

Greg

Vervil · Post by **Vervil** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:00 pm

I suppose it is much easier to find an amp sim that will sound unique and pleasent to our ears than to make absolutely right emulation of existing tube gear, but market wants something else, to sound real, or maybe to sound close to what they hear on their favorite records, so... I think that succes of POD was partly due to making it's sounds sound pleasant to the ear, instead of realistic in some cases, for instance Simanalog JCM900 to me sounds much closer to the real thing miced than Line6 Marshall emulation, but I guess most people not into realism that much would tell that they like Line6 sound more. So Line 6 are in a way making tomatoes that are more tomatos than real tomatos already.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:39 pm

does anyone els agree with me when I say that the last Marshall worth it's salt is the 800? Maybe it's just me, but I sure had a lot of time to play around with the 900 and current models a lot and they just didn't do it for me...

egbert · Post by **egbert** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:45 pm

Hink wrote:does anyone els agree with me when I say that the last Marshall worth it's salt is the 800? Maybe it's just me, but I sure had a lot of time to play around with the 900 and current models a lot and they just didn't do it for me...

Funny thing - I have had people tell me that the 800 series is where the rot set in - that the high gain models were there to sound good to punters at modest levels in guitar shops and the older models which sounded great when cranked up were the real deal.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:48 pm

I thnk the 800 was a turning point for Marshall...but they did still have a great sound...but yeah I can see that point...but I think when Marshall tried to live down their "one sound" rep they forgot about that one sound that made them the choice of many to begin with...

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:13 pm

I don't know about a real 800, but I sure like Line6's 800 for "high-gain". It's not technically as "high-gain" sounding as their fake Dual Rectifier or the "Insane" amp, but with proper technique I like the 800 much better for those kinds of songs.

Agreeing with Vervil, though, I'm not sure that it sounds like a real 800.

Qucifer · Post by **Qucifer** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:21 pm

Vervil wrote:Ampsimulators are what their very name says: SIMULATION of a real thing. They can become eventualy so close to the real thing to sound very alike, but they cannot be better, because that means different, and then they are original, not simulations anymore. And then, what actually means "better"? Better for what? Better in whose opinion? Better according to whose taste?

Then again, you never know. In the future digital guitar amplifiers may surpass old-school physical boxes as the hallmark of great tone. Maybe these new types of software "amplifiers" will offer desireable tonal possibilities that no traditional amplifier could possibly duplicate?

It's certainly possible. It isn't reality today and isn't looking probable... but it's possible.

zeoy · Post by **zeoy** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:35 pm

WTF

I was out of town for Xmas and missed my gift. Anyway, enjoy it guys. Haven't heard a single clip yet but I think that it's something special.
PMing Rene now ...

heeb · Post by **heeb** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:45 pm

Qucifer wrote:
Vervil wrote:Ampsimulators are what their very name says: SIMULATION of a real thing. They can become eventualy so close to the real thing to sound very alike, but they cannot be better, because that means different, and then they are original, not simulations anymore. And then, what actually means "better"? Better for what? Better in whose opinion? Better according to whose taste?
Then again, you never know. In the future digital guitar amplifiers may surpass old-school physical boxes as the hallmark of great tone. Maybe these new types of software "amplifiers" will offer desireable tonal possibilities that no traditional amplifier could possibly duplicate?

It's certainly possible. It isn't reality today and isn't looking probable... but it's possible.

Almost totally agree: I do think it is probable.

In the meantime, I seem to have started an undesirable 0's and 1's discussion, where I only wanted to prove somebody wrong:

championrabbit wrote:Some things are just impossible to emulate in the digital world. You might want to think of it as the 'magic' of classic equipment...

I just meant: Anybody with some mathematical insight will have to agree that this is bullocks, because some day, sooner or later, somebody will get the "0's and 1's" right. There can not be some "magical" property in sound that *can* be recorded, but not "simulated".

That was my whole point.

kilroy · Post by **kilroy** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:46 pm

Hink wrote:does anyone els agree with me when I say that the last Marshall worth it's salt is the 800? Maybe it's just me, but I sure had a lot of time to play around with the 900 and current models a lot and they just didn't do it for me...

From a recording perspective, I always found the jcm800 had a denser quality...better track penetration. The 900 somehow lacked the same torque.

Guitar players, The soundclick MP3 demo page got updated !