It Gets Even f**king Worse!

[pHz]

hmmmnnn

read back through this a bit

hmmmnnn

for obvious reasons dont REALLY want to get dragged into the specifics of this but i would hope that whatever REALLY occurred here doesnt tar all mods with the same brush and affect members perceptions of KVR as a whole

for my part i will (and have) ALWAYS (well 99% of the time apart from when im playing silly buggers in OT for fun - although im not saying that isnt a stupid thing for a mod to do anyway) tried to remember to annotate / announce / make obvious any mod actions i take since i believe it should all be done in a spirit of openness and honesty

slainte rob

[The Chase]

I remember when it was called kvr-vst...

that was like a year ago

[BONES]

I don't think anyone's been banned for what they said, rather the way they said it. I also don't consider much of what I've read about Nexus to be fair or unbiased. Every single thread (about Nexus) has degenerated into a slanging match (e.g. your reply BONES) which, while amusing, isn't actually useful.

Are you really so stupid that it has to be spelled out for you? OK then, imagine this scenario. A newbie comes to KVR to get some information on which software ROMpler he should buy. He looks all over to find information and discovers quite a few topics about Ravity, WusikStation, ManyStation and Nexus, the plugins he is considering. Whilst all the products have a lot of nice things said about them, there are also quite a few negatives about all of them, except one. Now Nexus costs more so maybe the reason for that is that its perfect, otherwise in a place like KVR there would have to be some negative comments about it from somewhere, wouldn't there? The same could happen with any or all of reFX's products if the mods get all 1984 on the archives and excise anything negative about any of their products. Sure, that's an extreme case and perhaps unlikely but if you had told me two days ago that a legitimate thread on a pertinent topic would be completely removed from teh forum before the originator had the opportunity to read even one reply, I would have said "that would never happen here".
We had a similar situation once with reviews but that didn't last long because it would have been biased and led to flawed judgements. i.e. you could only write a review if you owned a certain product. I'm sure that sounds reasonable if you don't bother thinking too hard about it. But if you take just a moment to think it through it means that only people who thought a certain instrument was worth paying for were allowed to review it. You might have been a beta tester who thought the synth was rubbish and didn't bother getting a full license or you might have tried the demo version for a month and come to the conclusion that the synth wasn't worth half what they were asking for it. Obviously, I would hope, these opinions are just as valid, i.e. "Why I bought this" and "Why I didn't buy this", and essential to make up a balanced discussion.

... banning PAYING customers when they didn't do anything on refx own forums? that's just downright wrong.

Well, its not unprecedented. I had exactly the same thing done to me by ImageLine.

KVR isn't the same as it used to be...

KVR is exactly the same as its always been.

If negativity against $20 skins

I can buy actual, physical covers for my mobile phone and have them shipped from overseas to my door for half that amount so if you can tell me why I should think that charging money for a few extra lines of code is not disgraceful I would really love to hear your explanation.

So the main points currently are
1, A developer designs a plug that takes skins - nothing new in that
2, the developer can charge for these skins as extras - maybe the first to split the cost of skins as a separate entity, rather than costing it into the plug.
3, some wont like it - some will
4, the developer will know if or not charging for skins is a good idea based on, if or not he sells any.
5, an outcry from some potential customers - and non-potential customers - nothing new in that
6, a sub topic from the first topic (see no1) about threads being deleted, locked, edited, and possible end of the world censorship - nothing new in that.
7, eventually gets boring, everyone goes home
8, next topic or sub topic, possible moving of this tread to hpc or locked
9, possible new thread based on no1 or no6 or no8 for those that just discovered no1 based around no2 or cannot find thread from no6 or no8
10, a sign of madness is repeating the same thing over and over

Yes, all very mature of you, except that you're clearly not bright enough to understand the implications. If the KVR mods remove all threads that show any negativity towards charging for skins, it would be reasonable for any other developer to look through these forums and conclude that no-one has a problem with charging for skins. Before long they will all be doing it, based on a totally unbalanced view that has been engineered by the KVR mods to favour one of their mates.

1) This isn't the first instance of a company charging for skins. When I bought the Ohmforce plugins a few years ago you had the option of choosing between two skins (normal and "weird" versions). You could only choose one at checkout and if you wanted the other one you had to pay for it. (I believe they have abandoned this approach since then). I don't recall there being a wave of outrage being directed toward them for this policy, which leads me to believe that the arguments surrounding reFX's decision to do this involve some sort of personal grudge toward the company by some people.

You're missing the important difference here. You got to choose which one you bought, you weren't sold a product with a krappy skin and asked to pay extra for a decent one. And the fact that Ohmforce don't do it any more might be an indication of the negative feedback they received, might it not? And that's not even taking into account how much time and effort Ohmforce clearly put in as opposed to the pretty pedestrian look of Nexus.

[Sascha Franck]

Errrr, yes! What Mr. BONES said. 100%!

[diverdee]

i would hope that whatever REALLY occurred here doesnt tar all mods with the same brush and affect members perceptions of KVR as a whole

I don't think it will.
This episode appears to be very much the exception rather than the rule.
On the whole you guys do a stellar job & a dialogue I had with one of your number earlier tonight made me realise that you likely don't get told that often enough.
So.....

[pHz]

warren

while i might agree with your points to whatever extent i still find the phrase 'KVR mods' (plural) to be a little inciteful

whatever happened here (for whatever reason) WASNT institutionally sanctioned (i hope) by KVR (ie - ben) but was the action of one individual mod acting according to their own opinions and interpretations of the rules that cover us all

if it was any different then im done here in my current role

slainte rob

[bluedad]

ok, I was the mod on 'duty' last night. with all the Nexus threads going on and with none of them actually discussing Nexus, and some getting rather nasty, I made the decision to move them to HPC. I was unaware of the forum rule that you must have XX amount of posts before being able to respond. Probably should've explained myself, but I went to bed shortly after. It wasn't my intent to censor, hence the move to HPC where pretty much anything short of the bowels of hell is a go.
I still think there's a lot of whining (even prior to the thread deletion) and
I'm still getting used to this mod thing (ask vonbrucken, I accidentally deleted his sig one evening)
so from now on, use of mod powers will be accompanied by an explanation. and
I will even move back the threads to 'Instruments'
but sorry 1-2 Many, I didn't move the one to OT, hopefully this will make up for it.
keep it civil, and if you want to discuss this further, don't clog up threads, PM me.
but I'm going to nap on the couch for now.
cheers
and to clarify - I did not delete any threads.

[afreshcupofjoe]

Great post BONES. It's amazing that your posts have stayed this lucid and level headed through this hole thing. Not that you haven't had some outbursts, but when most arguments get carried on to this point they have usually devolved into base insults and don't really contain any real content anymore. As annoyed as some people might be by now, I'm glad to see that your not letting this issue die. It's really important that everyone knows what went on with the Nexus threads. I couldn't care less about the skins, but the way the situation was handled was wrong. Totally F*ed up sh*t!

[fabi]

i'm with you on the plural of mod, rob...
no matter what happened, it's important for it to be in the open, imo. sure, people started a lot of threads - but if that hadn't happened the censorship and uncalled for deletion of threads may well have gone unnoticed by the admins and mods.

and hearing that HPC can only be read by users above 50 posts makes the censorship undeniable.

hope things will get better. i've always appreciated your way of moderating threads, though, rob. so cheers on that one.

fabian


edit: i just read your post bluedad, thanks for clarifying. i have no problem believing that you were not aware of the HPC 50 post rule - as many of us weren't. also appreciate you explaining yourself and getting used to being a mod is understandable.

still a shame about the deleted threads, but i believe you.

[Sascha Franck]

So, who deleted the threads then?

[afreshcupofjoe]

Just read bluedad's post. That's great to hear! I hope you didn't take any of this too personaly. I think we all appreciate the work of the mods here, but when people think objectionable actions have been taken, they are going to object.

[Spe3D]

We talk about this, right?



This is just a fan controller for modding, although I'm not a fan of the 'too much modding'!

I think reFX had a problem with trademarks or something in the past with Vanguard, where a hardware manufacturer requested a name change for their product. I assume, but not sure, what the implications are with an existing hardware product that's not audio related. I wonder who came first, or if the designer sold the idea of the name to both etc.

ImageLine had to change FL's name, from Fruity Loops - to FL Studio - because of a cereal sold in Australia, for example.

1) This isn't the first instance of a company charging for skins. When I bought the Ohmforce plugins a few years ago you had the option of choosing between two skins (normal and "weird" versions). You could only choose one at checkout and if you wanted the other one you had to pay for it. (I believe they have abandoned this approach since then). I don't recall there being a wave of outrage being directed toward them for this policy, which leads me to believe that the arguments surrounding reFX's decision to do this involve some sort of personal grudge toward the company by some people. That may have been what the moderator(s) objected to, although since they aren't talking we have know way of knowing for sure.

Ah! You are right, I forgot about the funky skins - so the Ohm boys were the first

Yes, all very mature of you,

I know, I do have my moments of maturity, though admittedly rarely

except that you're clearly not bright enough to understand the implications.

Ooooh! Don't be so sure about that, maturity comes with many layers of perception

If the KVR mods remove all threads that show any negativity towards charging for skins, it would be reasonable for any other developer to look through these forums and conclude that no-one has a problem with charging for skins. Before long they will all be doing it, based on a totally unbalanced view that has been engineered by the KVR mods to favour one of their mates.

Of course - if only one side of any product is shown (ie only the good - or - only the bad) the whole place would become totally useless.


Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[1-2-Many]

So, who deleted the threads then?

Kevvvv deleted the threads - without a doubt! If I need to I can produce evidence of such, but I'd rather not, trust me. I have it from an undeniable source that kevvvv did it.

And mods, please remember that when all this was going on, no one knew who was doing it or why. I thought I was careful to say "whatever mod" or "whomever" in my complaints. Whatever the case, there was no intention to impune you all collectively, only the one responsible. In general, I think KVR has a great bunch of mods.

Carry on


BTW - can someone please move my thread already

[mistertoast]

>>I remember when it was called kvr-vst...

Man, I thought it still was until you said that.

[1-2-Many]

Go here, and take the poll

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2264139