Well, another iLok drama unfolding

[Gamma-UT]

This is a molehill? OK, whatever.

so now you are going to start an argument with me on this?

Curious. Apparently even agreeing with you is difficult.

[Hink]

[The_Hidden_Goose]

It would be better if that company changes it's practices due to the pressure of people not buying their stuff anymore (and in the case of companies that use PACE to licence their software that would include them).

Oh yeah, let's thread another company with "no purchases". LinPlug dropped their USB key protection due to this. Shows how we are such good people.

Got nothing to do with being good or bad people. That's business in action. If a company can't deal with the needs of it's customers then they're not viable. If we lived in a morality bubble, there'd be no piracy and no copy protection at all. We don't, so everyone in the game has to deal with the cards in the pack.

If a dev decides it doesn't want or need the customers that are mardy about dongles then they carry on using them, and I'm sure they do just fine. I haven't got a problem with that, and I'm not criticising them for doing so. If they feel they need to drop that kind of protection to catch those customers then I'm cool with that too. It's their choice, informed by the needs and habits of their customers as they see it.

I don't know if it's a mountain or a molehill as I don't really know the facts about this particular issue or how widespread it is, or just how much legit users are being affected. Seems like a fair few from the furore, but I'm guessing a small minority in the grand scheme of things.

[Ghostwave]

Oh yeah, let's thread another company with "no purchases". LinPlug dropped their USB key protection due to this. Shows how we are such good people.

LinPlug? They only had serial numbers AFAIK. Rob Papen and KORG, on the other hand, did drop the dongle.

[Compyfox]

http://blog.emusician.com/the_bus/2008/12/02/313/
http://forum.cockos.com/archive/index.php/t-20433.html
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=213614 (KVR)


Caused by an angry mob of users, which in the end resulted in threatening the company. The devs gave in and dropped it. I still remember the uproad on KVR. Including the hate towards USB CP systems and "different opinions" on the topic yet again.

People will always hate it (USB CP) - so why even start to have an objective discussion about it?


I am currently not sure about IKM and USB CP systems. But I do remember asking them to go "back to them". No dice. And yes, I already know what you people are going to say. Please spare me the details.

[Ghostwave]

^ Thanks for educating me.

[masterhiggins]

There are a lot of people that aren't against USB CP as a whole but hate how PACE implements it (and their policies in general). You can sincerely dislike iLok but still like Steinberg's eLicenser...as I do.

-Sam

[Hink]

There are a lot of people that aren't against USB CP as a whole but hate how PACE implements it (and their policies in general). You can sincerely dislike iLok but still like Steinberg's eLicenser...as I do.

-Sam

I hope that this new advancement of dongles for other things will bring about more competition in the dongle industry. It would be a lot less bitter a pill to swallow for those who hat e dongles if they could choose who is safeguarding their software ('their' as in the customer). It is a two way street, yes they are protecting the companies from cracks, but they also safeguard the customer's license(s). You're absolutely right and therein lies the problem, right now we are stuck with the company the software we use tells us to use. Like I said before, until Samp made the dongle optional I had two codemeters, one for Samp and one for Yellow Tools Indy which is now owned by Magix (Samplitude)...imo that was just ridiculous...but if we had a choice then we might see better service and have more options

[MFXxx]

There are a lot of people that aren't against USB CP as a whole but hate how PACE implements it (and their policies in general). You can sincerely dislike iLok but still like Steinberg's eLicenser...as I do.

-Sam

I hope that this new advancement of dongles for other things will bring about more competition in the dongle industry. It would be a lot less bitter a pill to swallow for those who hat e dongles if they could choose who is safeguarding their software ('their' as in the customer). It is a two way street, yes they are protecting the companies from cracks, but they also safeguard the customer's license(s). You're absolutely right and therein lies the problem, right now we are stuck with the company the software we use tells us to use. Like I said before, until Samp made the dongle optional I had two codemeters, one for Samp and one for Yellow Tools Indy which is now owned by Magix (Samplitude)...imo that was just ridiculous...but if we had a choice then we might see better service and have more options

I agree in regards to competition. Personally I recognize the unnecessary need, benefits, pros and cons for dongles, but saying that there are companies out there who's hard work in the plugin world has remained fairly unscathed by the darker side of the web as far as I am aware. Maybe out of respect, clever protection schemes, I'd like to say not popular but that's rarely the case. On the other hand having a dongle is very handy for working between different systems and on that occasional reinstall or switching work station, saves a lot of hassle and time.

This does appear to be the other side of the coin however, where the company has made an error and some of the end users, innocent or not so naive have been hit rather than the software developers. It's going to be interesting how this pans out, if at all...

It's almost at the point where the industry requires an ombudsman to oversee best practices and behaviors.

I would like to see a generic system where the end user has the option to choose what dongle system they want use, so just one dongle system (or more) that a person can choose. But somehow I see this as an expensive, probably impracticable and price imparing. On the other hand could provide a better service for all.

When you have a monopoly there is little choice but as others have pointed out consumer pressure can work...

Bottom line is until the industry as a whole actually gives a shit about piracy, it will remain to the cost of businesses and the end consumer user. How many times have we seen in magazines and web articles where individuals actually making money from illegally installed software are caught out. If they face no consequences or punishment it simply sends out the wrong message...it's ok to make money from illegally installed and used software.

[Compyfox]

These people and magazine in questions indeed don't give a damn. The only thing we can do is boycott both the mag and the artist. Though they still get enough income to think like "was this a fly on my shoulder? Meh!".

Then again, musicians using cracks in order to produce content is nothing new. This goes way back to times where there was no Internet. Material was simply shared on CDs. Then again, there is so much content now - released daily, with demos and free test content (exceptions still exist!) - that there is really no need to use cracked software anymore (which is an own topic in itself, which can go just as fast haywire). WIth just a couple of hundred bucks max, you can produce just as much as people back in the day with 10 grand of a budget. A lot of people seem to forget that (which is why I said: if I have downtime, I can work my ways around it).


Regarding a "unified system":
Actually, Brainworx with the "Plugin Alliance" took the step forward a couple of years ago with the switch from iLok. With the current system of the "Alliance" (where Waves was shortly a part of it), you can decide to either install with a plain serial on your HDD, or on to an USB stick of your choice. The only downside is, that you still have to direct the plugin to the folder, where the license is resting. Unlike Wibu/Syncrosoft/iLok. And... the system can fail just as much (damaged USB stick, lost license).

This concept was actually in talk since the late 90ies (where the first demand for a "one dongle for everything" came up), and I saw first concepts and ongoing debates while I was still visiting Musikmesse (which was early 2000s).

Around this time, the so called "Call & Response" concept came up - where you don't store your license on your HDD per se, but ask for a "response code" to activate it. This however turned into some hassle with the license managers (the Native Instruments one is really cumbersome in terms of HDD space, handling, updates, etc - the IKM one took serveral instances until it was usable for "multi licenses", the Line6 GearMonkey system always had a hickup if the "net" had a bad day). And, we still have the issue if a developer is dropping off the planet and therefore rendering an activation of your tools invalid (most well known example: Kjaerhus - a lot of people were pissed that the C/R servers vanished!).

But then again, Elicenser and iLok also evolved: Elicenser made it possible to mode licenses freely from HDD to USB stick (sometimes back to HDD), iLok (after months of having issues with their Homepage and modern browsers) updated their license manager to a similar system like Elicenser (though you still can't delete "run out" or "demo" licenses). Everything was a bit more difficult a couple of years ago. Nowadays we are spoiled if nothing is working within 5 minutes. Or is troublesome to get to run with an offline rig (IKM Custom Shop comes to mind).




There is no ideal solution on the market. But at least the development didn't stand still and there actually is some comfort in using USB CP's like Elicenser/iLok (install software, drivers are sometimes updated automatically - start working).

Though I agree... if iLok and Syncrosoft would create "one" key, or at least USB keys that can also be used with a 4GB add on space for storing manuals or something like that (maybe even "Plugin Alliance Licenses"), then this would change the game a bit. But I think this will still take a while until that might happen. And nobody wants to give up their monopol.

[trimph1]

There are a lot of people that aren't against USB CP as a whole but hate how PACE implements it (and their policies in general). You can sincerely dislike iLok but still like Steinberg's eLicenser...as I do.

-Sam

+1. This.

Sometimes things just don't work the way they are set up to do.

Just like my heart condition.

[robotmonkey]

The problem is not necessarily dongle protection as such. Even though I personally do not like dongles at all I can see why some people like to use them.

The problem is with copy protection taking a dump on the heads of paying customers. In that regards PACE/iLok, eLicenser and C/R systems are an absolutely despicable practices (PACE being the absolute worst). It's about taking the control completely out of the hands of people who have invested money into their software and then have to put up with all that CP sh*t. If anything happens it's always the paying user who will suffer and have to take losses.

If you run out of stupid activation limit on Arturia plugins, they will blame you of being a dirty pirate and tell you to go buy all the products again. When PACE could not make it's dongle driver work properly causing a lot of BSOD's on Windows XP (http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/12/p ... -from-cdm/) they were super arrogant and blamed users system's. Well, in the end it turned out that it was a badly written iLok driver and the problem was actually very widespread. Basically anything that is not serial/regkey protected is an uncertain investment and puts all the risks and losses on the paying user. This latest debacle is just another one in long list of customer abuse.

[robotmonkey]

http://blog.emusician.com/the_bus/2008/12/02/313/
http://forum.cockos.com/archive/index.php/t-20433.html
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=213614 (KVR)


Caused by an angry mob of users, which in the end resulted in threatening the company. The devs gave in and dropped it. I still remember the uproad on KVR. Including the hate towards USB CP systems and "different opinions" on the topic yet again.

People will always hate it (USB CP) - so why even start to have an objective discussion about it?


I am currently not sure about IKM and USB CP systems. But I do remember asking them to go "back to them". No dice. And yes, I already know what you people are going to say. Please spare me the details.

Well, isn't how it supposed to be? It's a prime example customers having some actual influence. Obviously voting with the wallet is a way to go. If it says iLok or eLicenser on the tin, it's a certain no-buy for me. But on this day and age it is quite obvious that any despicable practices devs are engaged in will be scrutinized online by the masses.

[robotmonkey]

Though I agree... if iLok and Syncrosoft would create "one" key, or at least USB keys that can also be used with a 4GB add on space for storing manuals or something like that (maybe even "Plugin Alliance Licenses"), then this would change the game a bit. But I think this will still take a while until that might happen. And nobody wants to give up their monopol.

If anything then these latest debacles with iLok and eLicenser (being down during the Chrismtas) show that you do not want to have "one" key. Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket.

I would rather go about copy and pasting serials one by one once in a year or two than have to rely on something that is completely out of my control, and might or might not work occasionally. At least then I can be certain that I can always use my paid for software. Entering serials is not such a big deal because how often do you have to do reinstalls? With Windows 7 and freely available virtualization technologies I'd say once over two year period average.

Also here is a good example for you, Compyfox, about communicating with PACE on this matter:

here's the reply from ilok concerning my "case".

Hello,

I'm sorry, but you were sold a license that did not belong to the seller. You will need to contact the seller for a refund.

Best Regards,
K. Bosserman
iLok.com Technical Support

succinct, brief and to the point, don't you think? thanks ilok for all that you do.

[robotmonkey]

But let me ask this...is it possible that if it were not for copy protection some of the best software would be gone because the companies would go out of business? I say that's highly likely so yes when such things happen it's going to piss me off, I am going to rant too...but every storm passes and then it's time to move on.

So I hate copy protection, but it beats the alternative which could mean losing software I really like...a dongle is a small pita (even if it shuts down one piece of software for a month) compared to all the good that software has brought to improve my passion and how I enjoy my passion. I'm sorry if others cannot see their way to that point, but that's not my problem.

But is this the case at all? Is there absolutely any evidence to support this?

How is it that many companies do not use intrusive copy protection systems and still manage to turn out excellent products and still be in business. Take Image-Line or u-he for example. Or Adobe. Adobe's software has been pirated like hell since the very first versions and they still have managed to grow into a huge mega-corporation. Also their software is the best at what it does. Or take GOG.com from gaming world. No copy protection at all and they have been a huge success that is thriving. And actually just because of their stance towards intrusive copy protection.

The problem with piracy scare is that it is very hard to actually measure what would happen without copy protection. Most of the evaluations of so-called "lost sales" are taken completely out of air. It's just not sound economics. All that matters is how much you actually manage sell. If you are a shady dev with average products you might comfort yourself with the imaginary numbers that you might have sold but the fact is that nobody cares about your product anyway. Copy protected or not.