Diva vs Analogue - a real world test

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Ogopogo]

Aside from the recongnizable signature bread-and-butter sounds, can anyone explain the musical importance of being an exact emulation?

I think people just care about it because it's sort of the only way to objectively judge if it sounds good.

Although it seems we are nearing the point where we can convincingly mimic the sound of an analog synth with a plug, I'd guess that it's a still more complicated matter to be able to analyze every aspect of an analog synths sound and understand exactly how these aspects are contributing to the enjoyment of the sound. So if you take a dev that wants to capture whats good about analog in a plug, you can compare that to a chef that doesn't understand cooking well enough to judge the effect of every ingredient and cooking method on the outcome, but still wants to make a good meal. The chef will just stick to recreating recipes that are known to work.

And for the musicians that want to know if a plug is as good as the real thing, the only way to know that really is to directly compare and have them do the same thing. And if you can't tell the difference, then you know the plug isn't worse.

So basically I think you're right, it's academic. If your making music the exact emulation may not be important, it's just the only thing we can effectively test.

[Ogopogo]

is it important to make exact emulations or is it really important just to deliver similar qualities? I fail to see the point in the former other than being just one of the possible ways to the latter.

Exactly.

[SWAN808]

Aside from the recongnizable signature bread-and-butter sounds, can anyone explain the musical importance of being an exact emulation?

the musical importance is that many people find analogue synthesis and processing more musical.

So do I. But it's about certain qualities present in the analog sounds, not about sounding "exactly like that". If a softsynth has those qualities, I don't care if it has a hardware analog prototype or not. This is what is musically important. So it's not about analog or not, it's about whether the synth delivers those qualities. In that regard I can repreat my question: is it important to make exact emulations or is it really important just to deliver similar qualities? I fail to see the point in the former other than being just one of the possible ways to the latter.

yes but its a circular argument...'deliver similar qualities' - to analogue - ie the qualities that make analogue sound good...therefore - its accurate to the sound of analogue which sounds good

...there aren't many elements of 'analogue sound' that you really need to take out IMO. So I see your point but I dont think its necessary to argue 'against' a more exact emulation...its the exact analogue sound that sounds good. If its not accurate as we've had the last few years has not really been satisfactory. Only Monark and Diva are really close (plus new Roland is decent...)...

[zerocrossing]

The Beatles. 'nuff said.

</thread>



But I'm going to say the real synth is A, Diva is B.

One thing that confused me a bit is that I thought in some of the examples the envelopes in B made me think B was the hardware. Envelopes are usually a "tell" for me in these tests, but I thought the "body" of B was mushy and less distinct. But what the hell, I'll go with my initial answer.

BUT. I will also say that typical bread and butter sounds like this are in the overlap of what software and hardware both do well. Tests like this are a bit self selecting. It would be pretty easy to find the places where software failed and do the same test and we'd all know the answer. It's why I maintain that a hybrid approach is the way to go. Softsynths for what they do fine and for when you need a little extra oomph, whip out the analog.

Well then let me ask. What are the kinds of sounds that soft synths don't do well? Can you post some examples? And then, after that's done, maybe the OP can program those two sounds (assuming he has the hardware synth that made it) and then we can really tell.

I'm not even going to bother posting some examples, just load up Diva and set it to "Devine." Take the init patch and use dual VCO and sync the osc. Tune it up and add a little crossmod. Doesn't have to be much. Play a C5. Observe aliasing. <sarcasm>In case your 57 year old ears are shot, I'll describe it to you from my 50 year old vantage point. It's the odd harmonic garbage that sounds like a high pitch ringing.</sarcasm> This isn't some weird edge case. It just is, but you're not going to hear it much on a lower note or some mid range pads and the general sounds found in the test. Feel free to ignore it or say it doesn't matter but please don't say it doesn't exist because either you're truly losing your hearing (in which case I'd stop trying to sell preset packs) or your lying.

The End. My ATC-X may have costed me $800, but the notes stay sweet sounding all the way up. I'd drop a mic right now, but I lent my SM57 to my wife's employer and she hasn't brought it back yet and dropping a large diaphragm condenser or a PZM isn't as effective.

[zerocrossing]

P.S. While loading Diva up to make it sound bad, I made a really excellent bass patch along the way. I'm such a a$$hole.

[SWAN808]

I'm not even going to bother posting some examples, just load up Diva and set it to "Devine." Take the init patch and use dual VCO and sync the osc. Tune it up and add a little crossmod. Doesn't have to be much. Play a C5. Observe aliasing. <sarcasm>In case your 57 year old ears are shot, I'll describe it to you from my 50 year old vantage point. It's the odd harmonic garbage that sounds like a high pitch ringing.</sarcasm> This isn't some weird edge case. It just is, but you're not going to hear it much on a lower note or some mid range pads and the general sounds found in the test. Feel free to ignore it or say it doesn't matter but please don't say it doesn't exist because either you're truly losing your hearing (in which case I'd stop trying to sell preset packs) or your lying.

The End. My ATC-X may have costed me $800, but the notes stay sweet sounding all the way up. I'd drop a mic right now, but I lent my SM57 to my wife's employer and she hasn't brought it back yet and dropping a large diaphragm condenser or a PZM isn't as effective.

zero I remember you having very strong opinions joking about the 'analogue magic' that didnt exist some time ago. But yes I know your story of the turn-around after going on at Livingsounds for years he finally served you something you could hear, which was obvious in the first place.

I recommend you do some tests yourself and match it very closely. I say this as an analogue enthusiast - but one who has done exactly this extensively Diva against my OB8 and Moog Source.
You may find that its closer than you think.

[Synthetic Wav]

Aside from the recongnizable signature bread-and-butter sounds, can anyone explain the musical importance of being an exact emulation?

the musical importance is that many people find analogue synthesis and processing more musical.

it come down to only one thing, digital artifacts..once we can use crazy sampling rate digital will smoke everything analog from my little understanding, aliasing and tricks to reduce aliasing is what make the difference in sound it seems or at least a big part of it.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Lotuzia]

Great sound design matching job. Congrats to the SD

Differences I hear. On every clip when listening carefully. EV segments times/curves are probably different on the two synths, and its imo noticeable with fast attack/decay settings. Filters sweep is different too on one clip, and the last huge pitch fall/rise is the one clip that shows the biggest difference. ( listening on average speakers heren, but still .... good enough fwiw) Filters have similar character, a bit less when hi res is engaged ( also tbh probably more noticeable on the bass patch because of the filter ev strong action and difference between EVs) . All in all, to me, the two synths have a similar, yet different character (how similar or different is a question I let everyone free to answer to ) I could summ up this feeling like : One is more *in your face* (A), and the other more *delicate* (B), and I had the same general feeling on all clips.

I think that all the work has been done by ears, demanding a lot of listen-relisten-compare hours ( based on my experience in a similar attempt with the Jupiter 8 and another soft synth ) Could be wrong, but thats my guess. Again, nice work.

[trimph1]

8 pages....ok.....fine....I think...

[IncarnateX]

One is more *in your face* (A), and the other more *delicate* (B), and I had the same general feeling on all clips.

Which one do you think is DIVA?

[zerocrossing]

I'm not even going to bother posting some examples, just load up Diva and set it to "Devine." Take the init patch and use dual VCO and sync the osc. Tune it up and add a little crossmod. Doesn't have to be much. Play a C5. Observe aliasing. <sarcasm>In case your 57 year old ears are shot, I'll describe it to you from my 50 year old vantage point. It's the odd harmonic garbage that sounds like a high pitch ringing.</sarcasm> This isn't some weird edge case. It just is, but you're not going to hear it much on a lower note or some mid range pads and the general sounds found in the test. Feel free to ignore it or say it doesn't matter but please don't say it doesn't exist because either you're truly losing your hearing (in which case I'd stop trying to sell preset packs) or your lying.

The End. My ATC-X may have costed me $800, but the notes stay sweet sounding all the way up. I'd drop a mic right now, but I lent my SM57 to my wife's employer and she hasn't brought it back yet and dropping a large diaphragm condenser or a PZM isn't as effective.

zero I remember you having very strong opinions joking about the 'analogue magic' that didnt exist some time ago. But yes I know your story of the turn-around after going on at Livingsounds for years he finally served you something you could hear, which was obvious in the first place.

I recommend you do some tests yourself and match it very closely. I say this as an analogue enthusiast - but one who has done exactly this extensively Diva against my OB8 and Moog Source.
You may find that its closer than you think.

Go back and read my posts. All along I've said in the venn diagram of "what sounds analog" there is a lot of overlap. I've just been saying that to say there is no difference at all or that it's impossible to hear a difference is b.s.

[SeeingInMidi]

Jokes on us, op didnt actually use different synths in the tests, he had just duplicated everything twice

[cocoazenith]

I'll play.

A is OB-8 and B is Diva.