ABLETON LIVE 4.1 upgrade , Not happy...

[braj]

Make no mistake about it Tony - I don't see Reason as a host.

I totally agree

Live 4 is a host of course, but not a very good one, because it is inefficient at hosting things! WHat's the point of being able to "host" VST instruments and effects if the CPU and audio give out after you load around four plug-ins?

That's why I find Tracktion to be a far superiour host - it can actually host many synths and effects without struggling, and an almost endless number if you use freeze.

...

Live 4 has lots of potential and it remains on my hard drive, but isn't yet capable as a host.

Live4 is actually a great host for Reason IMO, and it's nice to be able to use the occasional VSTi. That's the way I use it. Too bad Tracktion isn't going to have better timestretch or beat mapping, otherwise I'd probably use it full time and never look back. I can't wait for the demo to come out so I can see where it fits into my workflow.

[headquest]

Live4 is actually a great host for Reason IMO, and it's nice to be able to use the occasional VSTi. That's the way I use it. Too bad Tracktion isn't going to have better timestretch or beat mapping, otherwise I'd probably use it full time and never look back. I can't wait for the demo to come out so I can see where it fits into my workflow.

I do agree with you that Live 4 is a good ReWire host... but not a good VST host, at least until they implement some kind of freeze functionality.

But I think I should really balance my earlier posts by saying that - issues aside - there are things that I really DO like about Live 4. I didn't just buy it on a whim, or because of a magazine review!

For example, I think that Live 4 is a great audio looping tools. I also love the working paradigm of the Session View - I find that organising material into "scenes" is a fantastic way to experiment with the arrangement of a song. And unlike some people, I actually really like the MIDI editor, particularly for sequencing drums. And using the "fold" view reduces mouse/pencil tool mistakes no end. And as a pattern-based sequencer I prefer Live over FL any day.

Whereas once they made perfect partners though, I get the impression that the distinction between Live/Reason is getting more narrow now. And ironically as a keyboard player I am far more likely to take Reason 3.0 and use it live than to rely on Ableton in a performance situation.

Tracktion 2 is a "done deal" for me. I love T1, and T2 takes the program to a new level.

I will be keeping Live on my hard drive though, and using it from time to time. I shall watch what happens with v.5, and if Ableton can implement a Freeze function I think it will solve many current issues I have.

[braj]

The thing with me is I will never use Live 'live'. I just use it like a regular DAW, but I like that the beat slicing all happens inside the app itself, so you can move audio back and forth, and i also like the midi implementation, 'fold' is great. And of course it is an awesome sketchpad, so song writing is really well suited to it as opposed to most DAWs that work best to produce your songs, bot write them.

I agree it's not a good VST host, hence my reliance on Reason still. But it's nice to be able to throw in a VST if you want, I'd rather have it there as-is than not have it at all. Really, if Live had freeze tracks, I'd have nothing to complain about really. There's nothing else that has as much 'right' going on for me personally, though I have high hopes for Tracktion. But without better loop support, I may have a hard time commiting. If the midi implementation is fantastic though, maybe it will make up for it. There's no way to guage that until the demo is released though.

[headquest]

Yes - roll on the T2 demo!

I think that Live 4's arrange view has many similarities with Tracktion's, and that may be one of the things that drew me to Live (I had previously left Cubase SX1 for Tracktion at a time when SX didn't have a freeze function). I really fell in love with Tracktion's ease of use and logical signalflow - great for me as a musician and as a teacher. I thought that Live's arrange view would replace Tracktion, but I would get the great Session view as a bonus.

I was right about the Session view, but wrong about the arrange view. As you say, Session view is great for composing and arranging. But Arrange view is not so useful at the production stage, because of the lack of freeze, PDC, and to my ears the audio quality is not as transparent as Tracktion's.

Lastly, I think that for the most part I would still prefer Reason over VSTs even apart from the CPU issue, because the modular environment of Reason opens a lot of different possibilities. Also I think that Reason packs a lot of bang for your buck when compared to the VSTs that I would seriously want.

[stale bread]

what are the vst issues you guys are talking about in Live?, do you mean the cpu usage cause on most pcs Live really flies, I know macs don't run Live well enough to use on it's own though, other than that i'm not really sure what if any other outstanding issues are. they say they're going to address the pdc (don't know when) and as far as a freeze function goes, i'd like one too but alot of folks like the way Live does it now ie" any track can route into anytrack and record its output, and the recorded track stays in perfect sync too all you have to do is make sure that the quantize setting is set so that both play and record tracks are starting and stopping at the same time. and the great thing about it is you can do lives version of freezing all while you're recording and playing, not stopping the flow of anything.
play your arrangement
don't stop anything- press cntrl+T
audio track pops up
assign vst track to audio track...still you haven't stopped any music.
arm track, start track recording when ever ready.
stop recording and fly in frozen vsti where ever and when ever you want, dis able source vsti and delete it if you wish you still did all of that without stopping anything.

imho the vsti implementation is great I can't even find anything to complain about it but I might not be using the same vstis you are so I don't know.

also I seriously believe that the routing In Live 4 surpasses the routing in reason by a foot at least, not saying anything bad about reasons routing but what is it that you think you can do 'routing wise' in reason that you cannot in Live 4?

[drez]

also I seriously believe that the routing In Live 4 surpasses the routing in reason by a foot at least, not saying anything bad about reasons routing but what is it that you think you can do 'routing wise' in reason that you cannot in Live 4?

I don't see where it really surpasses it (I'm a Live4 user as well), but I don't think that the audio routing is the only thing that people are referring to when they say "routing" in Reason. The CV routing is really really powerful, and Live doesn't have anything like it.

I think that EnergyXT has some incredible routing cababilities for MIDI and CC control, but for me, it is not as intuitive as Reason. With Reason I can quickly start routing things with a spider, dup the controls, invert them, chain them, whatever. I don't know for sure, but I'm certain that EnergyXT has much the same control, but I just don't know how easy it is to say "I want this one LFO from this one synth to control 16 different parameters on 16 other modules". With a spider-farm (kinda creepy sounding) its easy....just document your modules with good titles .

With combinator, it is even more amazing because of how you can assign annything you want to the knobs or buttons and then automate those. Pretty amazing stuff.

[headquest]

I don't know for sure, but I'm certain that EnergyXT has much the same control, but I just don't know how easy it is to say "I want this one LFO from this one synth to control 16 different parameters on 16 other modules". With a spider-farm (kinda creepy sounding) its easy....just document your modules with good titles .

Hi there drez. Well put!

I was wondering... quite apart rom eXT (which I haven't yet "got", although I can see the appeal)...

...can your average VST connect in this way anyhow? What I mean is, even if eXT can provide the cabling (and I'm not sure if it can or not) are the VST instruments built for it in the way that Reason's modules are?

I asked this same question on another thread (which got derailed by FL fanboys unfortunately). What I mean is, technically, can you (for example) get Linplug Albino's arpeggiator to modulate the filters on Kontakt, and then feed the audio back through Albino?

Certainly Reason's potential for such madness is a draw...

[kovacs]

I know macs don't run Live well enough to use on it's own though

Huh? What is this supposed to mean? My Powerbook G4 runs Live like a hot summer wind.

[lucille]

..can't figure out how to freeze a a track in live--thats pathetic

[braj]

..can't figure out how to freeze a a track in live--thats pathetic

Freezing and rendering are two different things. Tell me how you freeze tracks in Live.

[lucille]

to freeze in Ableton, resample to another track and
then diable the vst and fx the source midi track--you
can freeze with or without fx--

[braj]

to freeze in Ableton, resample to another track and
then diable the vst and fx the source midi track--you
can freeze with or without fx--

That's not the same thing as freeze, that's just bouncing, which should be common knowledge. Real freezing ala Logic, Tracktion etc would be really useful.

[lucille]

There is essentially no difference between freezing
and bouncing--Ableton is far more flexible than
Logic (freezes entire track) --you just don't have a "freeze button".

[TVD]

Unlike Reason (the soft studio that will never allow you to bring your other synths to the party), At least Live 4 (with all negatives aside) is a REAL host that will always be an open format to use other synths like FM7 (the king of FM synths). Nevermind that the MIDI recording isn't perfect yet!

Make no mistake about it Tony - I don't see Reason as a host. I see it as an incredible and powerful performance instrument that happens also to sequence/record, which most synths also do.

Live 4 is a host of course, but not a very good one, because it is inefficient at hosting things! WHat's the point of being able to "host" VST instruments and effects if the CPU and audio give out after you load around four plug-ins?

That's why I find Tracktion to be a far superiour host - it can actually host many synths and effects without struggling, and an almost endless number if you use freeze.

So I'm not entirely sure of the point of your post, except that you may have noticed elsewhere that I am a Reason user. Tracktion is my main host, Reason is my main instrument, Audition is my audio editor, Sibelius covers notation excellently, and this is how I choose to cover all bases.

Live 4 has lots of potential and it remains on my hard drive, but isn't yet capable as a host.

You already know from my previous quotes of the only reason why I'm not a Reason-user right now (THE point that I was making at the time). As for soft studios, I'm still using FLS as my primary host.

As for Live 4, it's stupid easy for me to use as an audio sequencer. The MIDI side of things need more work (it's not a good host until this only problem is fix). My main workaround would be to have all the instrumental parts done in FLS first and then drop all audio files in Live to finish it off.

Just like you, I also have Audition for the final mix (if necessary).

But one more point that I need to make is concerning this theory about a "doing-it-all-in-one" host idea.......

We're not there yet. And yes, I had high hope that Live would be that kind of host. And I know that it will be that host but not until Ableton do something about the problems of MIDI & CPU power-taking peak limits.

Don't laugh, but there is still hope for Acid Pro to be that kind of host if Sony can do something about their disappointing MIDI recording issues.

It will also be very interesting if Tracktion can become that special kind of host. It's user-friendly style features are a great advantage in itself.

But until then, one host is never enough for some of us.

[headquest]

There is essentially no difference between freezing
and bouncing--Ableton is far more flexible than
Logic (freezes entire track) --you just don't have a "freeze button".

I remember how Sonar users used to militantly defend their lack of a freeze by repeating this view ... right up until Cakewalk implemented a proper Freeze in S4