Why is Logic Pro only on macs

[spaceman]

kvr is like a bad lsd trip.. it just goes round and round and round and round faster and faster and faster and faster untill your brain gives up and you stomach goes BWWWAAAAAAAAAAARRRRFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

maybe it's time for an other cubase vs logic thread

has anyone discussed Reason lately and it's inability to host vsts?

[jupiter8]

has anyone discussed Reason lately and it's inability to host vsts?

Nah, it's a toy.No pros use it.

[D-Fusion]

Logic is Mac only, because it exists much better alternatives on pc

[derek]

So the consensus of this whole thread is that Cubase works one way and Logic another? Some people prefer the Cubase way and some don't?

That is really surpising! :hihi:

hey, dont disturb us ;-)

[Sascha Franck]

yes. i find it logical that an audio track in the arranger is an audio track in the mixer.

A) You can have that as well in Logic.
B) Do you find it as logical that a virtual instrument track in your project doesn't point you to the audio mixer channel of said plugin (in case "auto follow" is selected)?

and as i mentioned before, most of the time, you dont even need to go to the mixing window at all, in both programs.

I have a mixer window opened ALL the time on my main arranging screenset.

and what exactly is so extra-proper about the mute solo functionality in logic?

It works.
In Cubase there's a LOT of scenarios where the solo function is acting up, the reason being that the single keycommand assigned to it (reflected by the appropriate buttons as well) is used for a multitude of differently working solo situations (project, editor, mixer) - which, especially when working with "allways on top" windows and workspaces has a potential of seriously f**king up things. I'll gladly come up with some reproduceable scenarios.

careful, youre outing your limited cubase knowledge here...

So, how do I open one plugin UI, then open another one and have the previously opened one close automatically?

you can mimic the logicish quantization concept via midi plugins

You can't, not at all.
A) MIDI plugins are trackbased, whereas quantization is part based. A *fundamental* difference.
B) Quantizations done through MIDI plugins won't be reflected in your key editor. Another fundamental difference.

- complete renewal of everything concerning audio editing. logics audio editing is the worst of all current sequencers i can think of, by far.

I completely agree.

- stability *cough*, especially in hybrid logic/protools setups

No experience with that over here. But yes, stability should be THE key thing.

- sample precision everywhere. oh, and always sample precise PDC please, and make it work for external routings too.

Agreed.

- complete rework of the offline algorithms. all the programs out there are competing on a high level, samplitude recently introduced a sort-of-melodyne-mode, cubase basically implemented acid/live type elastic audio and the latest prosoniq algorithms, logic still has the same old pitch/time machine thingy (thats also based on prosoniq algorithms afaik, only its older ones from the late 90s) and...apple loops (aka recycle, which was the latest hip shit in the glory days of cubase VST, some 5 years ago )

I totally agree again. And I'd add: Clipbased audio editing straight in the arrange. Something Samplitude does as brilliant as it could get.

- import/export functionality. track archives, non-buggy OMF support, proper preset support for midi and fx etc

The good old OMF issue... don't even get me started. It's been countless times that I tried to take some sessions as OMF with me (as I had to make them Cubase compatible as well), only to end up with a pile of digitally messed up shit.

- a closer look at the audio engine. ive had it several times that logic had random offsets of +/- a few samples for each track, changing every time you press play. in certain situations, that may not make a huge difference, but when working with multitrack recordings (such as multimic guitar recordings or of course drums), this is a real showstopper.

Whoops. I never experienced that. But if this would indeed happen to me, it'd just drive me mad.

- fix the messy multichannel virtual instrument support. emagic back in the day placed a bet on virtual instruments never being multitimbral and multichannel. emagic, you lost. deal with it

Totally agreed. There's tons of multitimbral virtual instruments these days, and for quite some situations it's indeed making much sense to use them instead of multiple instances.

- while we talk about mixers - i want real mixer functionality. real meters with real individual headroom displays for every channel. different pan modes for every channel. phase switches, pre-fader gain knobs, all the nice and useful stuff.

Couldn't agree more. Having to insert a plugin just to invert the phase is ridiculous.

im even ok if it wastes some space. cause, you know, logic currently is king in saving mixer space as we all know

Pffft....


Anyways, what they REALLY should do is to give the automation a serious overhaul (the same goes for Cubase, btw). I want to be able to treat automation parts EXACTLY like MIDI parts. Cut, copy, loop, stretch and whatever them the same way! This is extremely important in case you're using automation during the creative process, rather then just for mixing.
Now, Logics automation folder allows for some things... but I want that functionality straight in the arrangement, without having to deal with dummy parts and what not.

Oh, and I want a goddamn trim button on my audio objects - or, even better: Give me a second fader or a switcheable one. Whenever I automate some levels and then find out that I need to raise the overall channel volume in the mix, I just don't want to insert a plugin just for that. And I also don't want to abuse a bus. And of course, I also don't want to tweak all the automation data. I just want it to be as with MIDI, where there's CC07 for overall channel volume and CC11 for relative volume.

[derek]

I have a mixer window opened ALL the time on my main arranging screenset.

in logic, you can setup a way that you have an entire channel strip shown, and it follows the selection of the arranger. needs about 1/30 of the screen space (something you seem to care about right? ) and does the job just fine in 9 out of 10 applications.

in cubase and nuendo, you can simply use the channel strip in the inspector.

again, with all the logic/cubase bashing aside (even though its fun ), i can only recommend you try it out. it actually is the more efficient method most of the time.

and what exactly is so extra-proper about the mute solo functionality in logic?

It works.
In Cubase there's a LOT of scenarios where the solo function is acting up, the reason being that the single keycommand assigned to it (reflected by the appropriate buttons as well) is used for a multitude of differently working solo situations (project, editor, mixer) - which, especially when working with "allways on top" windows and workspaces has a potential of seriously f**king up things. I'll gladly come up with some reproduceable scenarios.

well im sorry but if i didnt have one single problem with the solo button in more than 10 years using cubase - and i do use screensets quite a bit - then to me thats simply a "user error". as with all sequencers, in some cases all it needs is adjusting your workflow a bit. as long as thats an option, thats no big deal. i wish i could adjust my workflow in a way that would give logics audio editing equal functionality as the competition

So, how do I open one plugin UI, then open another one and have the previously opened one close automatically?

oh, that. that always annoys the hell out of me that logic by default only has one plugin window open, but i digress you said you have to always close each and every plugin window manually. that is not true. the moment you go back to whatever "homepage" you have in the program (i.e. recall screenset 1), all plugin windows are closed. otherwise, i see no benefit in only having one plugin window open by default, other than saving screen space (there! again! )

you can mimic the logicish quantization concept via midi plugins

You can't, not at all.
A) MIDI plugins are trackbased, whereas quantization is part based. A *fundamental* difference.
B) Quantizations done through MIDI plugins won't be reflected in your key editor. Another fundamental difference.

lighten up - the only relevant advantage of realtime offset quantization is to judge the quantization while you turn a knob and such. anything else was maybe a disadvantage when both programs had just one crappy undo, but these days...nah

The good old OMF issue... don't even get me started. It's been countless times that I tried to take some sessions as OMF with me (as I had to make them Cubase compatible as well), only to end up with a pile of digitally messed up shit.

you know, there *is* a way to get a functional OMF out of logic that properly loads elsewhere btw, one that even works in the old pc version. theres just a couple of things to consider:

- every track HAS to have a properly assigned audio track thats routed to the currently running audio engine (the reason for that is beyond me, but whatever)
- theres two OMF versions. choose the second one
- heres the sad part: forget 24bit. only 16bit works. not sure whether the selected dither makes a difference.
- best way is to have a "export as OMF" template project in logic, with i.e. 128 tracks, all nicely routed to logics taste. drag the files to be exported into that project (make sure to match the tempo before!), then you can do an at least functional OMF export with just one click.

Whoops. I never experienced that. But if this would indeed happen to me, it'd just drive me mad.

indeed. that in combination with the dreaded "tick" resolution and the PDC thats sometimes "just about right" doesnt make me trust logics audio engine all that much

Anyways, what they REALLY should do is to give the automation a serious overhaul (the same goes for Cubase, btw). I want to be able to treat automation parts EXACTLY like MIDI parts. Cut, copy, loop, stretch and whatever them the same way! This is extremely important in case you're using automation during the creative process, rather then just for mixing.

IMO most of that is completely covered by the marquee select tool (dont know about logic). id rather see some nice additions in protools multifunction tool style...but thats really just details.

Oh, and I want a goddamn trim button on my audio objects - or, even better: Give me a second fader or a switcheable one. Whenever I automate some levels and then find out that I need to raise the overall channel volume in the mix, I just don't want to insert a plugin just for that. And I also don't want to abuse a bus. And of course, I also don't want to tweak all the automation data. I just want it to be as with MIDI, where there's CC07 for overall channel volume and CC11 for relative volume.

the object volume was the single most important feature addition in cubase/nuendo to me. i could NOT live without it anymore. more of the same please. samplitude shows how its done


(edit to enable smilies)

[warp x]

has anyone discussed Reason lately and it's inability to host vsts?

Nah, it's a toy.No pros use it.

Exactly. anyone who uses Reason is not serious about making music.

[Sascha Franck]

in logic, you can setup a way that you have an entire channel strip shown, and it follows the selection of the arranger. needs about 1/30 of the screen space (something you seem to care about right? ) and does the job just fine in 9 out of 10 applications.

Old trick. And I am of course aware of it.
Yet, on my dual monitor setup I prefer working with a full sized mixer.

in cubase and nuendo, you can simply use the channel strip in the inspector.

I know. It's implemented lousily, unfortunately.

well im sorry but if i didnt have one single problem with the solo button in more than 10 years using cubase - and i do use screensets quite a bit - then to me thats simply a "user error".

No, it's not. It's not my fault that the solo function is behaving differently in case the mixer window is set "always on top". Even when you explicitely click back into your project's tracklist, the "s" command will be captured by the mixer, thus activating the mixer's solo funtion, which is behaving different than the one in the project window.
The same goes for the key editor. When you set up a workspace with a key editor, then select solo, then switch back to the project window, the solo functionality of the key editor will stay valid - and (which is proving the bugginess), regardless of which track you select, the active instrument will be the one edited last in the key editor, even if you switch "s" twice. You need to switch back to the key editor workspace, deactivate solo and then switch back to your project.
If these qualify as "user errors" then I really don't know...

oh, that. that always annoys the hell out of me that logic by default only has one plugin window open,

This has changed from V6 on. By default the plugin windows aren't chained anymore.

you said you have to always close each and every plugin window manually. that is not true. the moment you go back to whatever "homepage" you have in the program (i.e. recall screenset 1), all plugin windows are closed.

This is simply not true. When you switch between workspaces, their state stays the same. That includes all plugin UIs - unless you don't have them set to "always on top" - but of course, IMO at least, that's the only thing making sense.

otherwise, i see no benefit in only having one plugin window open by default, other than saving screen space (there! again! )

Wasting space is a massive issue for me.
I just don't want to click 25 GUIs away before I'm back to my parts.
But then, let me guess: You're not using "always on top" plugin GUIs, right?
In that case you are of course correct, but in that case we don't even need to discuss about anything regarding ergonomics anymore either, because it's just clear that we will never like the same thing at all.
Apart from my main arrange window, EVERYTHING in Logic is set to "float". Just everything. And I've got good reasons for it. But most likely you wouldn't like it, so, as said, no need to discuss about it any further. Different strokes...

lighten up - the only relevant advantage of realtime offset quantization is to judge the quantization while you turn a knob and such. anything else was maybe a disadvantage when both programs had just one crappy undo, but these days...nah

Oh yes! The visual representation of q-values is KICKASS in case you're comparing parts and the likes. I'm doing that all the time.
"Hey, shall I shuffle that shaker a bit more?"
"Hm, no, let me first try with the hat."

When you switch between the two parts (and it's just two!), it's tough to keep track of what you've been doing to which part in Cubase. It's a piece of cake in Logic.

you know, there *is* a way to get a functional OMF out of logic that properly loads elsewhere btw, one that even works in the old pc version. theres just a couple of things to consider:[...]

Cool, will check that out. Might be that I always just used 24bit. Thanks for the tip.

indeed. that in combination with the dreaded "tick" resolution and the PDC thats sometimes "just about right" doesnt make me trust logics audio engine all that much

But then, something somewhat slightly similar (well, at least related) happened in Cubase/Nuendo as well (I *think* it's fixed in version 3, not entirely sure):
When you multitracked something, you'd expect all files to be of the exact same length. Not so in previous versions of Cubase. The files lined up properly inside the program, but it seems as if the portions recorded during preroll weren't of the same length for each track.
I noticed that when I had to take a live session home with me (before having Cubase myself). Thought I wouldn't have to use OMF because it's all been continuos audio files recorded in one step. So I just didn't look at the filesizes but simply copied the entire audio folder. When I imported the files in Logic, everything was completely messed up.
As said, I think they've fixed this by now. But it's been horrible for sure.

IMO most of that is completely covered by the marquee select tool

Hm, I can't see a way to actually timestretch automation data.

the object volume was the single most important feature addition in cubase/nuendo to me. i could NOT live without it anymore. more of the same please. samplitude shows how its done

Yeah, agreed.
Btw, over the years I developed a habit of using a plugin for volume automation - some kind soul even custom coded a volume plugin exactly behaving like MIDI CC11 for me (so, default is volume all the way up), because that's what I originally wanted to replace. It's got 127 steps only, but as it's got internal parameter smoothing I don't care much about that.
I was always only using that to ride volumes, with my main faders staying nice and clean for overall volume adjustments. I couldn't care less about the "sexy" look of moving faders while playing back a song.

[Sascha Franck]

And btw, derek, my comments about us not sharing the same ideas of what would be "ergonomically pleasing" aren't meant offensive in the slightest.
Let's just agree that I'm right

[derek]

No, it's not. It's not my fault that the solo function is behaving differently in case the mixer window is set "always on top". Even when you explicitely click back into your project's tracklist, the "s" command will be captured by the mixer, thus activating the mixer's solo funtion, which is behaving different than the one in the project window.
The same goes for the key editor. When you set up a workspace with a key editor, then select solo, then switch back to the project window, the solo functionality of the key editor will stay valid - and (which is proving the bugginess), regardless of which track you select, the active instrument will be the one edited last in the key editor, even if you switch "s" twice. You need to switch back to the key editor workspace, deactivate solo and then switch back to your project.
If these qualify as "user errors" then I really don't know...

ok, lets jump right to the bottom line - deactivate "always on top" and your problems are gone. to have an always on top mixer in a dual monitor setup, which then is covered by always on top plugins, is not without alternative you know when i work in logic studios, i have to deal with the crappy to nonexistant audio editing. you dont have to live with the solo function not always guessing your wishes - rethink your screenset concept so that you dont have to always-on-top everything on top of each other and - tadaaa - the solo button soloes whatever you have clicked on the last.

i can setup any program into unusable madness if i just make the workspace arrangement ignorant enough of the program design. but is that a point? i dont think so.

This has changed from V6 on. By default the plugin windows aren't chained anymore.

really? then all logic using studios ive been in (quite a few) have changed the default.

This is simply not true. When you switch between workspaces, their state stays the same. That includes all plugin UIs - unless you don't have them set to "always on top" - but of course, IMO at least, that's the only thing making sense.

seems like you really have programmed yourself into a corner with your screenset arrangement.
let me put it this way - there are enough ways to have exactly what you want: press the solo button and the last selection or multiselection is soloed. press the "homepage button" and all you see is the arranger, plugin GUIs closed. IMO theyre even the most logical ways and id have to think hard to come up with reasons to have everything on top of each other until the program doesnt work anymore its all in the manual.

sure, maybe the always on top option then shouldnt be there in the first place. but thats a bit like me using crossfades on edited objects in logic all the time, even though i know that logic doesnt crossfade them correctly, and then complain about the resulting clicks every day instead of finding another method to make it work, dont you think?

Wasting space is a massive issue for me.
I just don't want to click 25 GUIs away before I'm back to my parts.

you dont have to, you just chose to

But then, let me guess: You're not using "always on top" plugin GUIs, right?
In that case you are of course correct, but in that case we don't even need to discuss about anything regarding ergonomics anymore either, because it's just clear that we will never like the same thing at all.

its not THAT simple. you need to split the holy ergonomics cow into (A) your goals and (B) your actions to reach these goals. im not questioning your goals and your idea about ergonomics. your goals are to have one click access to plugins, and another one click access back in the arranger, and a solo that soloes whatever you selected last. those are goals that basically everyone has and im not questioning them. but your *actions to reach these goals*, i do question them. they are quite obviously not ideal, since it seems like ended up with an almost non functional setup

Oh yes! The visual representation of q-values is KICKASS in case you're comparing parts and the likes. I'm doing that all the time.
"Hey, shall I shuffle that shaker a bit more?"
"Hm, no, let me first try with the hat."
When you switch between the two parts (and it's just two!), it's tough to keep track of what you've been doing to which part in Cubase. It's a piece of cake in Logic.

hm...allthough thats far away from the way i work, i would do above comparison by having both parts in one editor and then using the Q and Z buttons accordingly. again, seems to me like a very small detail compared to the pretty fundamental list of shortcomings...whatever.

Cool, will check that out. Might be that I always just used 24bit. Thanks for the tip.

24bit is definetly a showstopper. they could just as well just remove the 24bit option as it stands.

But then, something somewhat slightly similar (well, at least related) happened in Cubase/Nuendo as well (I *think* it's fixed in version 3, not entirely sure):
When you multitracked something, you'd expect all files to be of the exact same length. Not so in previous versions of Cubase. The files lined up properly inside the program, but it seems as if the portions recorded during preroll weren't of the same length for each track.
I noticed that when I had to take a live session home with me (before having Cubase myself). Thought I wouldn't have to use OMF because it's all been continuos audio files recorded in one step. So I just didn't look at the filesizes but simply copied the entire audio folder. When I imported the files in Logic, everything was completely messed up.
As said, I think they've fixed this by now. But it's been horrible for sure.

hm...one is a story where the file lenghts under certain circumstances were slightly off, resulting in problems if you blindly take the files to another program (not export them via the program but simply take the HD to another setup) and importing them there blindly, without looking at anything such as size and without using the position info included in broadcast waves. AND the bug has been fixed long ago.

the other is the program randomly messing up the position info of your files as you play them inside the arrangement you currently work on (maybe even as you record them? hard to tell). no lazy user, no exports, no imports, the program f**ks it up all by itself and everytime you press play, it does it in a slightly different way. its a bug that ive seen several times, also in 7.x versions, but dont ask me which, its been a while, definetly not the very latest. but fwiw i havent heard of a fix yet, seems like it hasnt even made it onto the known bugs list. add to that a PDC that by design is not always sample accurate and an arranger that by design cannot be sample accurate...compared to the very specific and long fixed bug, thats a bit in a different league IMO

Hm, I can't see a way to actually timestretch automation data.

ooh thats not fair. instead of acknowledging that it covers almost all the points you listed, you mention the one it doesnt cover. unfair, unfair, unfair

seriously though, no, it doesnt "timestretch". but its very cool for copying, moving, repeating etc, much more elegant that to use dummy objects. and in protools, this marquee tool is even better because it changes depending on where you put it, i.e. turning into a handy volume offset tool between automation points and stuff like that. very nice.

Yeah, agreed.
Btw, over the years I developed a habit of using a plugin for volume automation - some kind soul even custom coded a volume plugin exactly behaving like MIDI CC11 for me (so, default is volume all the way up), because that's what I originally wanted to replace. It's got 127 steps only, but as it's got internal parameter smoothing I don't care much about that.
I was always only using that to ride volumes, with my main faders staying nice and clean for overall volume adjustments. I couldn't care less about the "sexy" look of moving faders while playing back a song.

...hm...i think ill stick with the object volume handles

And btw, derek, my comments about us not sharing the same ideas of what would be "ergonomically pleasing" aren't meant offensive in the slightest. Let's just agree that I'm right

dont worry. just nice clean sports and i can easily agree with you that youre right in certain areas, particularly the list of complaints about logic is pretty much fine with me

[putte]

.. wow, derek und sascha .. tiptop-unterhaltung .. ..

Logic is an outdated old monster, and if i wouldnt be that lazy i'd have a look at other sequencers ..

putte

[fabi]

öy, kein would im if clause... böse, böse

[Sascha Franck]

ok, lets jump right to the bottom line - deactivate "always on top" and your problems are gone.

No. In case I'm using a key editor in another than my main project workspace, along with the solo function, the problem still exists.

rethink your screenset concept so that you dont have to always-on-top everything on top of each other and - tadaaa - the solo button soloes whatever you have clicked on the last.

Seriously, I've been rethinking the workspace concept a LOT, so I could quickly adjust it to both single and dual monitor setups (something I never had a problem with in Logic). I just didn't manage to come up with something pleasing me.
But (even if that's quite another thing), it's got a lot to do with Cubase not allowing me to open editors as float windows as well, at least in the dual monitor setup that's highly annoying.

i can setup any program into unusable madness if i just make the workspace arrangement ignorant enough of the program design. but is that a point? i dont think so.

See, I don't think I'm asking for something esoteric or unreasonable. Just for something working as it *should* be working. Or, let me better say: As you'd think it'd be working. I'm teaching that stuff, having to use Cubase (which is the only reason I'm more or less familiar with it anymore anyways) - and whenever it comes to such things, all these things just happen to the students.
"Workspace for a key editor? Ah yeah, cool...".
"Solo? Yeah, let's solo the edited part!".
"I've selected my organ track but I'm hearing a drumset!".
Things like that.

really? then all logic using studios ive been in (quite a few) have changed the default.

I'm almost sure it's been changed. Simply because I've been wondering a lot when using it for the first time (freshly installed, so nothing's been changed).

press the "homepage button" and all you see is the arranger, plugin GUIs closed.

You know that this isn't exactly the truth. The plugin GUIs aren't "closed" but simply "hidden". Not a biggie, yet a difference. You need to click the button to bring them up twice now (besides, the buttons are looking "active", whereas you still don't see the GUIs).

sure, maybe the always on top option then shouldnt be there in the first place.

No no no!
Always on top is THE saviour when it comes to full sized arrange windows (which are again saving space, and YES, I AM anal about that!) and dual monitor support.
Besides, I simply don't want my plugin GUIs to be hidden instantly just because I decide to move a part or do whatever arranging action. That's why "always on top" is set in my preferences.

those are goals that basically everyone has and im not questioning them. but your *actions to reach these goals*, i do question them. they are quite obviously not ideal, since it seems like ended up with an almost non functional setup

Again no, sorry. All I know from my own "tests" is that a lot of things regarding ergonomics require more clicks, mouse movements and whatever in Cubase than in Logic.
I *could* perfectly get away with that, but I just don't want to.
It's not that I wouldn't know about workarounds, but for me, having seen the "Logic light", these are nothing else but just that: workarounds.

hm...allthough thats far away from the way i work, i would do above comparison by having both parts in one editor and then using the Q and Z buttons accordingly. again, seems to me like a very small detail compared to the pretty fundamental list of shortcomings...whatever.

Really a matter of preferences. To me, those MIDI editing things (and mind you, I'm nothing else but a guitar player) are making the difference. And I couldn't live with the editor thingy.

[...]the other is the program randomly messing up the position info of your files as you play them inside the arrangement you currently work on (maybe even as you record them? hard to tell). no lazy user, no exports, no imports, the program f**ks it up all by itself [...]compared to the very specific and long fixed bug, thats a bit in a different league IMO

Yeah, I agree. My comparison (which wasn't even exactly meant like that) was a bit of a wide stretch.
Fwiw, I never experienced the bug you're talking about personally. As said before, it'd make me freak out.

ooh thats not fair. instead of acknowledging that it covers almost all the points you listed, you mention the one it doesnt cover. unfair, unfair, unfair

Seriously, I'm timestretching modulations and the likes very often.
Think about pseudo wahwahs, accomplished by filter sweeps. Now, let's make a 16th wah out of that 8th wah. Piece of cake with MIDI time stretch. A nightmare when using automation.

seriously though, no, it doesnt "timestretch". but its very cool for copying, moving, repeating etc, much more elegant that to use dummy objects. and in protools, this marquee tool is even better because it changes depending on where you put it, i.e. turning into a handy volume offset tool between automation points and stuff like that. very nice.

Not familiar with PT at all (shame on me, I should get into it one day), but that's sounding good.

dont worry. just nice clean sports and i can easily agree with you that youre right in certain areas, particularly the list of complaints about logic is pretty much fine with me

Pfft!

Cheers

[kuniklo]

.. wow, derek und sascha .. tiptop-unterhaltung .. ..

Logic is an outdated old monster, and if i wouldnt be that lazy i'd have a look at other sequencers ..

You really should. I think it would help you put your frustrations with Logic in perspective if you experienced first-hand the frustrations of the rest of them. They all suck each in their own special way.

For me the way Cubase handles VST automation disqualifies it right out of the gate, although there are several other things I really like about it.

[derek]

hey putte! i want to hear your remixes!

anyway, glad to be of entertaining help :-)

No. In case I'm using a key editor in another than my main project workspace, along with the solo function, the problem still exists.

then dont...see, youre quite obviously limiting yourself to the very logicish workspace/screenset/whatever fancy name they came up with technique. but you have several approaches in cubase and nuendo, of which i find the general screensets actually the least efficient ones. just dont open the key editor window by using a screenset (of all things!). thats mit kanonen auf spatzen geschossen and as you can see, is not really working well with the program design. i actually have only one screenset (my "homepage") and all the rest is done by opening the windows i need on top of it. i close everything either via "close all" or by recalling the homepage.

it results in exactly the same workflow, you get anywhere you want with one click and back with one click too. yet, i dont have any problems with solo, i dont have any problems with plugins that refuse to close, it just works this way. thats what i mean with the difference between the goals you have and the actions you take to archieve them. and thats generally the biggest problem people have when working in sequencers that are not "home sweet home" to them. they usually dont make a difference between the goals and the ways. here you are telling me that my program cannot solo a track properly. yes it can. its not the program, its you. sure, the reason is that the program isnt "compatible" with your way of trying to get things to work, but well, thats bad luck. if the program did, MY way of working would not work anymore, and of all things, i dont want my nice nuendo to be turned into anything that even remotely resembles logic audio ;-)

Seriously, I've been rethinking the workspace concept a LOT,

well sorry but if you cant even get solo to work properly, then maybe you didnt think enough. or too much. i dont know ;-)

so I could quickly adjust it to both single and dual monitor setups (something I never had a problem with in Logic). I just didn't manage to come up with something pleasing me.
But (even if that's quite another thing), it's got a lot to do with Cubase not allowing me to open editors as float windows as well, at least in the dual monitor setup that's highly annoying.

with the "open windows on top of homepage" approach, its very easy. just make an alternative homepage with all relevant windows positioned yet hidden where you want them. that sort of becomes the "switch" you press from multi monitor to single monitor, then its back to opening and closing windows on top of it, just with the desired positions. its in fact a lot easier than to have screensets for everything and every possible situation.

See, I don't think I'm asking for something esoteric or unreasonable. Just for something working as it *should* be working. Or, let me better say: As you'd think it'd be working.

see above. youre not making a difference between your goals and you actions to reach them etc.

I'm teaching that stuff

then it would be all the more helpful if you started to see the difference. right now, i as a long time steinberg user would say that youre teaching your students to use cubase as if it were logic, with all the negative yet absolutely unneccessary consequences. with all due respect, that doesnt make you a very good cubase teacher from where i stand ;-)

You know that this isn't exactly the truth. The plugin GUIs aren't "closed" but simply "hidden". Not a biggie, yet a difference. You need to click the button to bring them up twice now (besides, the buttons are looking "active", whereas you still don't see the GUIs).

aha, so you DO know that you dont have to manually click away all the plugins to get directly back to your arrange window, yet you still choose to do it???

and anyway, youre still wrong. recalling a locked screenset closes all plugin windows, it doesnt hide them, theyre closed, no lit edit buttons, nothing. the other options you have, from the top of my head: recalling the arranger as a window does NOT close the windows, recalling an unlocked screenset goes back to your last view, the "close all" command gets you directly to the arranger with the plugins hidden in the back and the double click syndrome (ive had worse problems than that ;-). with all the fancy new BS added in nuendo 3 im sure theres even more.

among all these possibilities to get from window A to window B, theres more than one approach that does what you want without screwing up half the programs functionality. believe me. its the truth ;-)

sure, maybe the always on top option then shouldnt be there in the first place.

No no no!
Always on top is THE saviour when it comes to full sized arrange windows (which are again saving space, and YES, I AM anal about that!) and dual monitor support.

just dont insist on always on top windows and without a maximized arranger window. youre not doing yourself a favour with this (not to mention your students!) maximizing the arranger window is a bad idea for LOTs of reasons. you save the amount of pixels that equals one small audio track, and look at the price you pay for that...is that the programs fault? i dont think so...

Besides, I simply don't want my plugin GUIs to be hidden instantly just because I decide to move a part or do whatever arranging action. That's why "always on top" is set in my preferences.

see, i hate it the other way with the plugins not going away. is that a switchable option in logic too? id like to turn it off, and it would be great to hear if it can be turned off.

Again no, sorry. All I know from my own "tests" is that a lot of things regarding ergonomics require more clicks, mouse movements and whatever in Cubase than in Logic.

thats because your tests are flawed ;-) as much as i dislike logic with a passion, as far as pure ergonomics go, the difference between the programs are minimal at best, logics a bit better here, cubase and nuendo a bit better there. dont judge that by how fast you can do it yourself, judge it by comparing the workflow of a die hard cubase user with the workflow of a die hard logic user (that can be you ;-). take a stopwatch. youll end up with microscopic differences. within the given functionality, you can work incredibly fast in both programs.
only when you talk about the functionality itself, the differences start to become really big *cough* ;-)

I *could* perfectly get away with that, but I just don't want to.

i noticed ;-) to each his own. i only find it kinda fishy that youre *teaching* this, and in this way...

It's not that I wouldn't know about workarounds, but for me, having seen the "Logic light", these are nothing else but just that: workarounds.

youre basically making a big deal about how cubase wont adjust to your method of setting up workspaces as you like (even though you know there are lots of alternatives that are basically identical in functionality). youre making a big deal about having to close dozens of plugin windows each time you want to reach your arranger when you know how to do it with one button, yet you brush of entire categories of the DAW world away as if they were small details...small details like audio editing...to hell with it...see the "logic light" ;-)

i call that a bias. im heavily biased too. but i usually try to at least openly admit it and have fun celebrating it ;-) to hell with logic :-)

Seriously, I'm timestretching modulations and the likes very often.
Think about pseudo wahwahs, accomplished by filter sweeps. Now, let's make a 16th wah out of that 8th wah. Piece of cake with MIDI time stretch. A nightmare when using automation.

how cool that many effect plugins in cubase can operate as VST instruments that receive midi, huh? ;-)

Not familiar with PT at all (shame on me, I should get into it one day), but that's sounding good.

its one of the few really nice things about protools (heres the short list: multi purpose automation tool, track playlists, expensive but nice realtime DSP, beat detective - the end :-)

otherwise, protools is surprisingly boring and dumb. but it at least works. many recording studios that i know that used the classic logic/TDM hybrid made the switch to protools during the time where with all the transitions from logic 6 to 7, VST to AU, asio to core whatever, OS 9 to OSX it all became so...so messy ;-)

Pfft!
Cheers ;)

thats the spirit ;-)