KVR MIX CHALLENGE - MC03 August 2014 - Voting period has ended, Winners announced (pg 17)

[Compyfox]

So I take that as a "don't want to join" (anymore), since you can't believe in an actual really good concept to objectively judge tracks. Something that was even requested after MC01.

It's a pity, since you miss out on your chance to win excellent tools. But I'm sure we as initiators can live with that.


But you still don't seem to comprehend what "Loudness Normalization" actually is

Again:

Wikipedia writes this about this topic:
"Another type of normalization is based on a measure of loudness, wherein the gain is changed to bring the average amplitude to a target level. This average can be a simple measurement of average power, such as the RMS value, or it can be a measure of human-perceived loudness, such as that offered by ReplayGain and EBU R128."

...

So the focus of the "normalization" is the average signal strength. For more simplicity, this will be judged with the ITU-R BS.1770-x (read: EBU R-128) specifications. Loud mixes will be pulled down to a level like -18LUFS SLk (max), though I tend to go higher this time around. (maybe my K-System v2 concept)

...

The end result is that [all] tracks played back side by side have the same perceived loudness, but it clearly shows which track was pushed to it's limits (read: lack of transients, squashed production due to pre-mastering attempts, etc), and which wasn't. This makes it actually easier to objectively judge a production!

There is sadly no video on YouTube on this topic yet. Else I'd hotlink it here.

But once more, the MC02 voting process was loudness normalized. No "mastering" involved, no "peak normalization", no magic mojo (other than one track that needed to be dithered down). Only the loudness (average signal strength) was being adjusted to have a consistent level. And the feedback we got after this move was not negative.

Of course you can reach for a volume knob yourself - but if we as initiators provide the service already that you don't have to manually compensate...



Then again, weren't you the one that posted EBU R-128 meter screenshots in the first place?
And you don't believe in Loudness Normalization being objective?

That is beyond me to be honest.


So the easy way out for you is to say "I don't agree", point fingers at people who you think did wrong to you, and withdraw. You even did it in the Gossip thread, where others could have actually learned from your posts.


Point taken.

[Grant S]

[Compyfox]

Not really helping your case - just saying.

[Davias]

Davais I think the backing vocals on yours are off timing. Other than that, I really like your mix. The EQing on the vocals specifically

Thanks for warning me !

Sadly I've been quite busy these last days and I only see your comment now that the submissions are ended

I guess it is too late to submit a new render now, I hope since it is a mix challenge that I will be noted on the mix only and not on this mistake of mine.

Thank you for the nice comment on the mix Chaosbringer

[camsr]

Your mix is the best of loud IMO. It will get one of my votes.

[Davias]

Your mix is the best of loud IMO. It will get one of my votes.

If you are talking about mine then I humbly thank you sir



I've read the posts about the mixing buss, I hope also it is ok for mine. The EQ is there to correct my bad room response (it is just impossible to correct every track once there is an un-balance somewhere) anyway it is a plain digital EQ and could be nulled by any engineer I guess, no fairy dust, so I hope it is not a problem.
The SSL is barely compressing 1dB, the needle is almost always not moving.
The tapes are ok if I read well (any I don't push the volume too hard so I guess the dynamics are not too much changed).
the second compressor is actually VoS SlickHDR, I don't know if it can count as fairy dust... I use it a little bit like a parallel upward compressor, to fill the voids when there is less things happening in the track.
Finally the "enhancer" is lkjb Refine, mostly to add stereo wideness and a bit warm (I know I could have used a mid/side plug, but it was just out and I wanted to use the toy :p).
Anyway I guess if I had put too much compression on the mix buss, the "normalization" process will reveal that my mix is flawed so I guess this is no cheat to put a compressor on the master buss, the SSL was there for "groove" "warm" and "glue" not for loudness war, I mixed at very low level and used my volume knob to hear something (had to turn it twice more than when i listen to commercial music or when I do compose for myself).
Hope it is ok

[Grant S]

[quote=compyfox] Of course you can reach for a volume knob yourself - but if we as initiators provide the service already that you don't have to manually compensate... [/quote]

As long as I can correlate the same results by adjusting the volume, I guess I could live with myself I'll vote if the rules for that doesn't get too complicated In any case, I'll update the thread with the mp3 with the wave and notes if my smart ass hasn't got me thrown out. If it has, that's cool too

As far as what I used mostly was, TC Powercore, I couldn't recommend anyone to go that route since all support ends in November

[satYatunes]

I find the normalization process very helpful. We started it in MC02 and it really helped in comparing the tracks objectively without being biased by perceived loudness.

[Grant S]

That was impossible for you with the volume knob? I'll try to keep an open mind...

[Uncle E]

That was impossible for you with the volume knob? I'll try to keep an open mind...

FWIW, you can use your volume knob in either case. There's nothing destructive about what we're doing, we're just evening out the levels so that mixes can be judged on balance and creativity rather than loudness.

I've been a mastering engineer since before, through, and after the loudness wars, and the tools are now so good that I can get just about any mix up -11dB RMS without sacrificing much and -9dB RMS with just a bit of sacrifice (which a lot of people like, anyway).

[Compyfox]

As long as I can correlate the same results by adjusting the volume, I guess I could live with myself

Whatever floats your boat.

I'll vote if the rules for that doesn't get too complicated

If you didn't like the official rules for submitting, you might not like the way we vote either. Then again, it's a tested process taken over from the "one synth challenge" in KVRaudio's own instrument section.

In any case, I'll update the thread with the mp3 with the wave and notes if my smart ass hasn't got me thrown out. If it has, that's cool too

We'll discuss this internally.

Technically you withdrew your submission since you couldn't agree on the publicly available rules and because of certain of my comments.

As far as what I used mostly was, TC Powercore, I couldn't recommend anyone to go that route since all support ends in November

This challenge is not about giving definite recommendations what plugins to use, it's merely giving hints on what type of tool could be used. You might use a Powercore, others might use an UAD, yet another person might use outboard gear, and yet another one might use host internal plugins only. The lines in terms of quality of tools are thin these days - whatever get's the job done.

[Uncle E]

This challenge is not about giving definite recommendations what plugins to use, it's merely giving hints on what type of tool could be used. You might use a Powercore, others might use an UAD, yet another person might use outboard gear, and yet another one might use host internal plugins only. The lines in terms of quality of tools are thin these days - whatever get's the job done.

Yes, agreed. I tried not to give too much details on the brands of plugins this time unless they had a special sound (most reverbs sound different from each other) or feature (Studio One's Analog Delay has saturation and filters, while its Beat Delay seemed to somehow be more in sync than other delays for some weird reason).

[ShereKaan]

- Shere Kaan: no WAV file available, please provide one

https://soundcloud.com/sherekaan/if-i-w ... shere-kaan
Done.

-Shere

[Grant S]

This challenge is not about giving definite recommendations what plugins to use, it's merely giving hints on what type of tool could be used. You might use a Powercore, others might use an UAD, yet another person might use outboard gear, and yet another one might use host internal plugins only. The lines in terms of quality of tools are thin these days - whatever get's the job done.

Yes, agreed. I tried not to give too much details on the brands of plugins this time unless they had a special sound (most reverbs sound different from each other) or feature (Studio One's Analog Delay has saturation and filters, while its Beat Delay seemed to somehow be more in sync than other delays for some weird reason).

Off to work now, when I get home, I'll try to take a more through approach to my comments. For instance, went with BX V2 as my para eq on a few things for the mid/side option.

[Grant S]

Here's my notes: Disclaimer, I am not a professional audio engineer just an old guitarist/ songwriter learning new things. I have taken a few online courses years ago and started messing with a DAW back in the win 95 days. Though I've rarely been involved with the mixing so far, I have performed vocals, guitars, synths and blues harp for many online producers and learned most of my practical audio knowledge from them.
The Electronica stuff is still a bit grey for me, I'm mostly familiar with it from some 3D movies that had Lunascape in it. Also I played a video game called " Vampire the Masquerade" That had a lot of stuff like it. I used the, captured from DVD, version of this song for a reference Lane Navachi

Since the vox are so appealing to me, I didn't import them until I had all the instruments to where I wanted them in fear I'd loose all objectivity once the vox were in there.

Kick drum: I now understand Uncle E wanted a real low kick in there, now that I've read the whole thread. Sorry but even at low volumes those lows not only hurt my ears. It also displays a solid red strip in my visualizer before the bass even comes in.
I'm not sure I could have dealt with it any differently had I been aware of the desire for the super sub low kick. Low pass and Hi pass on the kick with a small bump at about 190. Assimilator was then used with my Roger Taylor kick capture. Sonar's CE was used as well

All other kit pieces was assimilated to the Taylor eq's not much else except hi and low pass. on both HH closed and open. Fet comp on snare. Only plug in the Drum buss is a pultec emu

Bass: Waves ADT in channel, ST FET. Buss: Cl1b emu

Vocals: Delays used were FF timeless 2 and TC tap factory. lots of eqing, minor timing and pitch adjustments. Buss was vocal rider, a few sweeteners and a de-eser

Synths and transient effects all had carving done some mid side seemed necessary to get some of the resonating out. I may have been a little overly fond of the transient effects lots of different FX used in the channels for those. This is where I had to rely on my reference the most.

several reverb busses mostly TC, DVR2, VSS3, and Non-lin, and a relab lex was used.

As has become my normal workflow, I'm running out of DSP at about that point and finish the mixed project in another project. I always consider this my ghetto mastering phase but the plugs I've been using are not really being used as final master plugs IMO. Except perhaps Ozone 4. I only use the stereo module to center the lows SSL buss compressor as a with higher ratio as a limiter. a mid side stereo plug and a tape sim.

Most of it was done in one long late night ,5:00 am bedtime, with the VRM box and cans and finalized the following day with ARC and monitors.

Not an expert here, but then again I don't believe in experts. The learning never ends IMO.