FinalMix compared to?

[Frippertronix]

And to make one last point about Kingston's pronouncements before I go to bed. Who said there was anything wrong with the '90's??

The '90's gave us awesome hits from Cher, New Kids on the Block, Celine Dion, and Ricky Martin!!



And....Wilson Phillips!

[headquest]

And....Wilson Phillips!

Only just though - their hit record came out in 1990.

I was working for their record label at the time

That's one for each of 'em.

[Kingston]

back in business, although manhandled by the 'KVR attidude police squad'.

Since there has been talks of phase distortion I'd like to remind of the fact that ANY filter/EQ (apart from linear phase) ARE a phase distortion. When you tweak that parametric, you are essentially delaying the phase on a certain frequency range. You could say it's this delayed signal summed back to the original that creates the perceived cut or boost. I'll pull out the (rather complex) math if someone needs to know why this is true even mathematically. Linear phase preringing, by the way, is nothing else than the phase distortion transformed to time domain distortion.

With good EQ phase distortion just happens to sound good and the ill effects are minimised, just like on the fletcher EQ example. Sometimes, like in the case of manley massive passive, some of the ill effects are taken advantage of, thus creating a uber-phased musical sound. BBE maximiser design also plays on the ills of phase distortion: they call it enhancing, I call it destruction.

Now with cross-overs, you are essentially summing the worst effects of phase distortion on a very narrow frequency range. Like jmh said, you can hear an audible boost on the crossover range. You can't measure it, but your ears perceive the effect as a boost. Sometimes, and especially on speaker crossover design, they tend to use very wide Q values to widen the range of distortion, thus minimising the audible distortion.

[daverich]

Bah - wrong forum.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

[IIRs]

Now with cross-overs, you are essentially summing the worst effects of phase distortion on a very narrow frequency range. Like jmh said, you can hear an audible boost on the crossover range. You can't measure it, but your ears perceive the effect as a boost. Sometimes, and especially on speaker crossover design, they tend to use very wide Q values to widen the range of distortion, thus minimising the audible distortion.

You miss some important points IMO: No-body should be running a full mix through a multi-band processor unless it has problems that need to be fixed. Fixing mix-down problems with stereo processing is always going to be a compromise.. however, Final Mix offers very fine control over the frequency and slope of its cross-overs, and if these are positioned properly it is quite possible that the problems you mention will be out-weighed by the benefits of (eg) better controlled bass. I have yet to try the Voxengo plugs you name, but I suspect they subsitute the phasing artifacts you dislike so much with other artifacts..

The bottom line is: if your mix is flawed in some way, Final Mix offers very powerful tools to help you improve it. If your mix is too perfect to be 'ruined' with a traditional cross-over (of one which lives in every hi-fi speaker btw) why the hell are you running it through a 3-band compressor?

[IIRs]

Sometimes, and especially on speaker crossover design, they tend to use very wide Q values to widen the range of distortion, thus minimising the audible distortion.

Final mix allows a range of cross-over slopes from 6dB/octave to 36dB/octave, as does the Mackie 3-band comp (which always seems to be overlooked )

[Kingston]

Who said there was anything wrong with the '90's??

Tho I know you're only joking I have to be pedantic here and remind people I was talking with perspective to finaliser/finalmix tech. Those, my friends, were definitely children of the 90's, and luckily they stayed as such. There are only a handful of good 00's multibands. One of them is TubeTech SMC-2B Stereo Multiband Compressor, and none of them is finaliser.

If you can't respect me because of my elitist attitude, go to gearslutz (or similar) and see what the engineers and producers of your favourite bands have to say on the subject. If you don't want to believe me, there must be someone you can trust.

[jmh]

I couldn't care less if you have a PhD from MIT, we are talking about art, not designing the International Space Station.

So it'd need to be a MA which would get the necessary authoritative backing in this matter (and yes, just kidding)

Oh darn... had a good long post being formed and trimmed but most of it has been covered between refreshing the preview

If your mix is too perfect to be 'ruined' with a traditional cross-over (of one which lives in every hi-fi speaker btw) why the hell are you running it through a 3-band compressor?

Uhh, wasn't his whole point about NOT doing that in the first place?

On the same note... since we're mostly talking about people improving their own mixes, wouldn't it be recommended that the mix itself is fixed?

I can suggest trying out Soniformer though... for me, it's overkill (I admit it, too much control just isn't for me!), but in skilled hands, there is no competition whatsoever to it. And it just sounds 'artifact free' compared to about any other plugin solution.

Kingston Howsabout it, is it OK to put those songs online?

Regards,

JMH

[Kingston]

Kingston Howsabout it, is it OK to put those songs online?

since I'm a perfectionist and I know you don't have the latest mixes, no. I've dug a hole deep enough underneath me already to let these people hear how much I actually suck.

[jmh]

Yeah, I know - in this situation it'd make very little sense...

JMH

[Mr. Tingle]

Kingston Howsabout it, is it OK to put those songs online?

since I'm a perfectionist and I know you don't have the latest mixes, no. I've dug a hole deep enough underneath me already to let these people hear how much I actually suck.

ah, go on, go on, go on.

I'm interested, got to be something I could learn, even if it's just an explanation as to why you think they are now flawed.

[IIRs]

Kingston Howsabout it, is it OK to put those songs online?

since I'm a perfectionist and I know you don't have the latest mixes, no. I've dug a hole deep enough underneath me already to let these people hear how much I actually suck.

I'd like to hear them! I promise to listen with an open mind, and not to comment unless its positive or constructive, if that makes any difference..

[DWS]

You know I'm there for you man If you want, I can put those 3 mentioned songs (System will go down, I'm gonna rock you baby and that competition thing) online.JMH

That would be great because I couldn't find anything at Sound on Sound.

I do not have a record deal as of now so I'm a bit protective about giving away the commercial stuff

Doesn't have to be a full song, could be just a 30 second sample.

thx, Scott

[Kingston]

That would be great because I couldn't find anything at Sound on Sound.

Are you sure? Because it's there in september issue in Business End section. It's pretty much a full page and I see 'Michael Kingston' with letters the size of a small cat in there. You have to be a member to access the latest issue on the net, but the mag is on sale right now as well.

Anyway, we are so far off topic now, that I'll start a new thread with new song releases in there.

[IIRs]

October issue is on the shelves already round these parts..

I found it anyway: "The production's pretty good. The mix is good, a couple of slight imbalances here and there but generally I think he's done pretty well to be honest"

I can produce good SOS quotes too btw: "The production sound is very well balanced, clear and professional over my expensive speakers, and still good over the alternative Sony hi-fi monitors in my studio."
<edit> I suppose you want the link

Now how about some examples to back it up..