Diva vs Analogue - a real world test

[Hank the Knife]

Ok. Now we have discussed 'warm' and 'cold', we could discuss other contrasts like: 'light' and 'dark'.
'Up' and 'down'. 'Near' or 'far'. Etc. etc.

[bmrzycki]

'Near' or 'far'

this one is easy. There is only one authority on near and far. Anyone else is just wrong or possibly a commie.

[hakey]

Call me a commie, but this is the definitive explanation.

[Mutant]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/19/trave ... index.html

Huehuehuehuehuehue !

[Gamma-UT]

http://www.catchonco.com/insight/can-a- ... ur-palate/

Interesting how they draw a conclusion without involving a control group to determine whether it was possible that diners found the 'inferior' version more pleasing without any of the other chicanery.

You've also got three dominant flavours in it: saffron, liquorice and lime. These appear not to change. The key change is apparently the chicken stock. Plus the difference in preference is marginal according to the graphs in the study. Published by a PR company no less in a study promoting the value of personal PR. Shock, eh?

Any more cod science?

[hakey]

Confirmation bias is a well established effect. Certainly not cod science.

[Gamma-UT]

Confirmation bias is a well established effect. Certainly not cod science.

But not demonstrated by the experiment. It can't. The design is all wrong. It's simply confirmed the bias of confirmation bias.

[bmrzycki]

I don't understand why Mutant is laughing after that post. Is he implying it proves some point of his or does he just like the idea of people being fooled? I'm confused.

[PAK]

metaphors involve a risk. They have meaning only if the people who they are addressed to shares the same cultural and civilization backgrounds and references. Otherwise they may be meaningless or even worse, may assume meanings that are different or even opposite of the original meaning attributed by the author.

Yes. It makes me think of how onomatopoeia words are hilariously varied across cultures - assigning different sounding words to the same sounds.

Metaphors about universal properties, like the association of red with heat and blue with cold, tend to cross cultures. But many things build on existing ideas which frequently make no sense. EG Pink is for girls, but blue is for boys. Cue Apple's latest innovation.. Now men won't have to feel bad when they whip out their girly phone.. "No no, it's not pink", it's rose gold", they'll explain.

The Hollywood entertainment machine, along with the internet, is making shared references much more common, and we're all a lot more "programmed" in these areas than we might like to admit.

A frequent reason people use these mechanisms is because we (all of us) don't know how to explain something, so we turn to them to try to help. Beyond potential misunderstandings, the main issue is people who think they're saying more than they are when using them, and who then give insufficient context to support an opinion. That can lead down an absurd path.. How much silky syrup chocolate talk can you take before you want to slap someone and ask them what they actually mean?

Hopefully this post is sufficiently chocolate syrup pudding cup.

[PAK]

You know what would be funny? If you present exactly the same sounds, but with different experimental settings (for example one in a red painted room, then the same sound in a blue one). Then compare the results.

With the "right" visual cues I'm confident you could change the perception of certain sounds based on visual information. There's even real world examples of companies acting on this - Placing LED lights behind valves etc. I mean, how's it supposed to "warm" a sound if it's not glowing?!

We seem to want to resist the notion that some of our senses may override and lie about what another sense is telling us. Even though we're also very familiar with concepts like approaching something with fresh ears (taking a break, and hearing something differently when you go back the next day).

Perhaps because it says something disturbing about "reality" when we admit just how nebulous our senses are. To quote a well known emo.. "Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream?"

[PAK]

Today I was messing about with my Nord Drum 2 and it's FM engine. I'd call it "cold" sounding, yet not as cold as a DX FM engine. So of course, there are degrees of things, but I don't think anyone would call most digital FM "warm" sounding even when it lacks a lot of high frequency content

I think it's partly about what FM immediately presents you with - very plain sounds. Even though they modulate each other, implementations of it still tend to lead in certain directions (clanging noises etc). But what does it take to remove that "cold" impression? Think of the infamous epiano sounds. Many would (and did) call those sounds warm, with little more than chorus added. So it doesn't take a lot to change things.

I think FM gets a bit of a raw deal because of the difficulty a lot of people have with it. Given a capable enough engine it'll generate interesting textures, especially once you break away from the confines of sine waves and crippled hardware interfaces. Makes me wonder what they'd have said if the DX7 was given a knobby interface, easy per-voice detune, and a Juno chorus

Here's something I thought of that may have helped the birth of the term "warm." Tube amps

There's always more factors than we realise, but I think you're correct in suggesting this was the main influence in why it came into common day use in the way it did.

[PAK]

Ok. Now we have discussed 'warm' and 'cold', we could discuss other contrasts like: 'light' and 'dark'.
'Up' and 'down'. 'Near' or 'far'. Etc. etc.

Near and far isn't exactly a subjective term! It's just another way of saying Louder vs quieter, shorter vs longer reflections, and more vs less detail due to frequency loss. You might also mention mid and side with a stereo signal, since wider sounds would be "further" than narrow "in your head" sounds on headphones. Up and down? Tougher sell, but Dolby are promoting their Atmos system on that basis

Light and dark? Context needs to indicate whether it's used as a reference to high/low frequency, a reference to playing style (light touch), or mood (dark sounds = fear, horror etc). They're good examples of multiple meaning terms which can be well understood once given sufficient context.

Those who struggle to understand context (they speak English as a 2nd language, or are high on the autistic spectrum etc) are likely to have more problems interpreting what is meant when these terms are used.

[zerocrossing]

Today I was messing about with my Nord Drum 2 and it's FM engine. I'd call it "cold" sounding, yet not as cold as a DX FM engine. So of course, there are degrees of things, but I don't think anyone would call most digital FM "warm" sounding even when it lacks a lot of high frequency content

I think it's partly about what FM immediately presents you with - very plain sounds. Even though they modulate each other, implementations of it still tend to lead in certain directions (clanging noises etc). But what does it take to remove that "cold" impression? Think of the infamous epiano sounds. Many would (and did) call those sounds warm, with little more than chorus added. So it doesn't take a lot to change things.

I think FM gets a bit of a raw deal because of the difficulty a lot of people have with it. Given a capable enough engine it'll generate interesting textures, especially once you break away from the confines of sine waves and crippled hardware interfaces. Makes me wonder what they'd have said if the DX7 was given a knobby interface, easy per-voice detune, and a Juno chorus

Here's something I thought of that may have helped the birth of the term "warm." Tube amps

There's always more factors than we realise, but I think you're correct in suggesting this was the main influence in why it came into common day use in the way it did.

Right, I get what you're saying about a DX, but remember in this context, and for sure the context that it was introduced into the world, it was called "cold" because of the sound of the DACs compared to the competition, which at the time was an analog what? Juno 106? AX80?

Add to that the DX's ability to produce types of enharmonic waveforms that analog synths struggle with. Waveforms evocative of metal bells, tines, and glass. Remember, my definitition of "warm" was even harmonically rich sounds with a limited high frequency content. Materials that make up instruments traditionally considered "cold" sounding. I'm not saying FM can't produce "warm" sounds, I'm just saying that it's unique (then) characteristics got the focus of people's descriptions. Most people had not heard aliasing before the DX7... most people had not heard digital at all, or for sure didn't own one. I'm not sure how I feel about the modulation of a sound contributing to it's percieved warmth. For now I'm going to leave it out when I contact the bureau of standards.

But it's all a continum and it would help to put a term like "warm" in a context when using it. For instance, "I was looking at the DX7, but I bought the AX80 instead because it sounded warmer. I wish I could buy a CS80 because that's even warmer!" I think you'd be hard pressed to find a musican that wouldn't understand that statement.

[trimph1]

Neither opposite can exist without its necessary other.

[braj]

I think FM gets a bit of a raw deal because of the difficulty a lot of people have with it. Given a capable enough engine it'll generate interesting textures, especially once you break away from the confines of sine waves and crippled hardware interfaces. Makes me wonder what they'd have said if the DX7 was given a knobby interface, easy per-voice detune, and a Juno chorus

I bought a Juno 1 right when they came out, they advertised the "alpha dial" as the newest, easiest way to program a synth, of course it was a major bummer compared to the 106. I do think if the DX7 had knobs we all would have a different perception of FM. All synthesizers got harder to program when they started to abandon knobs.