Tone2 will release Icarus - 3D WaveTable Synthesizer

[JonSolo]

Why don't you just change currency to Euro when you are about to checkout. It worked for me.

[ATS]

Anyone already asked this @ tone2 itself? I mean, via their site? Since they aren't active (a.f.a.i.k) on kvr...

gee I wonder why they wouldn't want to communicate with all these friendly people on here

[lolilol1975]

Woodsdennis, you are an idiot, please stop to adress me. You have no idea what my point of view is on this thing. You just scream "SCANDAL!!!", without having any idea how this is processed at all, just in it for the drama.

If anyone from a country which doesn't charge VAT ever ordered at the Tone2 shop, he could shed some light on it. IMO, it is not possible to charge VAT for buyers from country which doesn't have VAT, simply because the VAT has to be conducted in the country the buyer is from, and if that country doesn't charge VAT, there's nothing to conduct.

Well, I thought I made it perfectly clear what's going on.

I have two Tone 2 synths that I have purchased that other people paied 146 euro for that I paid $199 and $189 (I got $10 off for a sale) for.

Would you like me to post my invoices? I have them saved.

I'm sorry, but this is not fair. Why should I pay so much more money than everybody else for their synths just because I live in the US?

Funny you guys seem to be discovering this practice. Unfortunately, this is pretty standard screwing practice. We Europeans get screwed ALL THE TIME in the same manner (and usually much worse) when buying american products.

Almost always, the conversion rate is 1$ = 1€ for pricing, no matter the fact that the $ has varied from 0.6 to 0.9€ in the last 10 years.

Quite often though, it's closer to 1$ = 1.5€ or even 1$=2€, sometimes even worse. That is mostly for manufactured goods, but also sometimes for software. Take for instance a Hakko soldering station. Unitl recently, the official european price was around 2.8x the US price. I understand they have to change the voltage, and there is shipping cost, but does it justify a 180% increase ? No, it was just the company's policy. Currently it's $110 on amazon.com (and $96 from some resellers) and €140 i.e $157 on amazon.fr. Same for the Klipsch speakers, a pair that cost $1500 would be sold €3500 here (official prices). Examples like that abound by the tens of thousands. Apple used to do that for instance. They would sell their products at a rate of 1$ = 1.3€ or something like that (nowadays it's 1$ = 1€ I believe).

Why would they do that ? Because they can.
Of course, it's not an excuse for the Tone2 practice and I'd say the best response is to boycott their products or send them thousands of complaint mails, but it's just a very common practice.

[lnikj]

As I said above, living in the UK I have felt comprehensively ripped off on computer and camera purchases for over 30 years. Once you go beyond import duties, VAT etc.. there has been a history of high pricing, especially as just noted, for manufactured goods. This has improved a little in recent years, especially as just noted, with Apple.

On the odd occasion, things are cheaper than in the US, but not often. I would estimate my ratio of "losses" to "gains" over the years to be somewhere in the order of 50:1.

It is not simply a matter of US companies charging high prices in the UK, but sometimes Japanese or other overseas companies charging different prices in different markets. Our politicians tell us that pricing differences are not something they have, or should have, any control over, because this is about free market capitalism and the concept of 'charging what the market will bear'. As far as capitalism is concerned, value judgements about 'fairness' are simply category mistakes.

In the case of Tone2, I think the VAT argument is a red herring. Tone2 have simply decided that US customers will be charged $199, and European customers €149 (on which they have to pay their customer's governments the VAT proportion of that). They could charge US customers $500 if they wanted, or $50; they are under no obligation to price equally in different markets.

Whether the market will 'bear' that is another matter. If enough US customers decide they don't want to purchase at that price, or bombard Tone2's mailboxes with their views on the matter, then maybe they will change their pricing structure. Maybe.

[EnGee]

Anyway, if you are non-EU resident and want to pay 149 euro (equally with the EU residents), then use Paypal. Otherwise, wait for a discount in JRR Shop, or Audiodelux, ..etc. They might sell it cheaper. As for me, I'm not in rush, so I prefer to wait, maybe there will be 2 in 1 sale again in some shops. I would choose Icarus and another synth then

[woodsdenis]

As I said above, living in the UK I have felt comprehensively ripped off on computer and camera purchases for over 30 years. Once you go beyond import duties, VAT etc.. there has been a history of high pricing, especially as just noted, for manufactured goods. This has improved a little in recent years, especially as just noted, with Apple.

On the odd occasion, things are cheaper than in the US, but not often. I would estimate my ratio of "losses" to "gains" over the years to be somewhere in the order of 50:1.

It is not simply a matter of US companies charging high prices in the UK, but sometimes Japanese or other overseas companies charging different prices in different markets. Our politicians tell us that pricing differences are not something they have, or should have, any control over, because this is about free market capitalism and the concept of 'charging what the market will bear'. As far as capitalism is concerned, value judgements about 'fairness' are simply category mistakes.

In the case of Tone2, I think the VAT argument is a red herring. Tone2 have simply decided that US customers will be charged $199, and European customers €149 (on which they have to pay their customer's governments the VAT proportion of that). They could charge US customers $500 if they wanted, or $50; they are under no obligation to price equally in different markets.

Whether the market will 'bear' that is another matter. If enough US customers decide they don't want to purchase at that price, or bombard Tone2's mailboxes with their views on the matter, then maybe they will change their pricing structure. Maybe.

Fair points but deciding to charge a completely different inflated dollar price is unique AFAIK in the VST synth business. I have seen 2 methods from companies based in the EU
1. Uhe, charge the dollar price and stick VAT on for EU customers.
2. NI. charge the same number amount in euros/dollars but make EU customers pay Euros. This takes care of the VAT amount due with the exchange rate difference.

[RichN]

As I said above, living in the UK I have felt comprehensively ripped off on computer and camera purchases for over 30 years. Once you go beyond import duties, VAT etc.. there has been a history of high pricing, especially as just noted, for manufactured goods.

I had no intention of buying Icarus, but I think I might get it after all.

For €149,-.

Just to experience, for once, how it feels to get something for a better price than our friends across the ocean.

[aMUSEd]

Yep, pretty much the same thing then, just some options different, and more in Icarus.

Yeah the formant osc shaping mode isn't in Serum (although there is a formant filter) - on the other hand you can combine functions as macros which adds to what Serum can do, and it has additional morphing options in the osc wave editors. So all in all I'm still not clear where the 3D comes in either. Does Icarus have macro knobs?

So - back to the actual thread topic, did anyone answer this, does it have macro knobs (like Serum and Massive)?

[chk071]

Yep, pretty much the same thing then, just some options different, and more in Icarus.

Yeah the formant osc shaping mode isn't in Serum (although there is a formant filter) - on the other hand you can combine functions as macros which adds to what Serum can do, and it has additional morphing options in the osc wave editors. So all in all I'm still not clear where the 3D comes in either. Does Icarus have macro knobs?

So - back to the actual thread topic, did anyone answer this, does it have macro knobs (like Serum and Massive)?

No. It only has pitch wheel and modwheel knobs in the GUI, which could be handy when using a virtual midi keyboard, like i do sometimes. E.g. i map the detune of several oscillators sometimes to the modwheel, and use that as kind of a macro knob. Of course, not the same, as if you had several of those.

[aMUSEd]

OK that's rather disappointing, they are way behind even old synths like Massive there (Massive still does best in that respect and good sound designers use the macro knobs very effectively to create variation in their presets).

[Caine123]

im really looking forward to feedbacks, i didnt have much time to test it and wont have this week sadly....
as a lover of SERUM's easy to use GUI and flexibility i wasnt so invited by ICARUS yet. still i like tone2 vsts and i often use Gladiator and Nemesis (Saurus is nice but doesnt sound really so full like Diva etc.) and the Random Patch makes me interested, i hope it will be like Gladiator 2 etc. i mean you get random sounds which are 99% not bread and butter and inspire you, well me at least!
so im looking forward and hope this will be nicely finished and polished !

ps
no macro knobs is really a downside, i hope for flexible and visually nicely displayed modulated sources (blue line etc. like Serum!) every synth which presents less comfortability and features why should u get it? we have 2016 and i expect inviting GUIs which are less fiddly and self explanatiory.

[db3]

Displaying modulated sources is certainly something T2 should think about. Not just Serum, but SB Factory is a great example of this. Already fed this back.

[exmatproton]

OK that's rather disappointing, they are way behind even old synths like Massive there (Massive still does best in that respect and good sound designers use the macro knobs very effectively to create variation in their presets).

I agree, native macro's are really nice and a big plus. But isn't it possible these days to do that in any DAW? I saw Icarus has (finally....) a quite easy midi learn function. Wouldn't be too hard to make macro's in the DAW itself, i think?

But yeah, macro's in the UI itself is king!

[aMUSEd]

OK that's rather disappointing, they are way behind even old synths like Massive there (Massive still does best in that respect and good sound designers use the macro knobs very effectively to create variation in their presets).

I agree, native macro's are really nice and a big plus. But isn't it possible these days to do that in any DAW? I saw Icarus has (finally....) a quite easy midi learn function. Wouldn't be too hard to make macro's in the DAW itself, i think?

Yes of course that's what things like Kore are for, however that means I can only make them for Kore users (or users of the particular DAW) but if they are built into the patch sound designers have so much more scope for creativity. They are shooting themselves in the foot because they are not going to attract some sound designers this way.

[exmatproton]

OK that's rather disappointing, they are way behind even old synths like Massive there (Massive still does best in that respect and good sound designers use the macro knobs very effectively to create variation in their presets).

I agree, native macro's are really nice and a big plus. But isn't it possible these days to do that in any DAW? I saw Icarus has (finally....) a quite easy midi learn function. Wouldn't be too hard to make macro's in the DAW itself, i think?

Yes of course that's what things like Kore are for, however that means I can only make them for Kore users (or users of the particular DAW) but if they are built into the patch sound designers have so much more scope for creativity. They are shooting themselves in the foot because they are not going to attract some sound designers this way.

Yeah, true. Especially for patch making. But for personal use, it isn't necessary imho. Would be great though. Macro's are so handy!