Maybe I'm just blind......

[Kriminal]

If you have to believe in something, believe in yourself.

[pHz]

fundamentally i agree with that ...

... everything else builds on self-knowledge and self-belief ... without that how DARE you believe in anything else ???

slainte rob

[headquest]

fundamentally i agree with that ...

... everything else builds on self-knowledge and self-belief ... without that how DARE you believe in anything else ???

slainte rob

A lot of people come to a place of self-knowledge and self belief precisely THROUGH their faith, and through the teaching of their faith, their interaction with other believers, and the support they receive from their religeous leaders.

(I'm not saying that is either a good or a bad thing... just that it IS a thing!).

I don't mean this at all unkindly, but I have met quite a few people with low self-esteem, poor social skills, and/or are somewhat inadequate... but who have gone on to become far more confident and able people via religion. In that sense there is no doubt that religion has helped many (although undoubtedly harmed many as well, of course).

[IIRs]

(in islam it says the devel can speak to you in your own voice)

Oh FFS!!! God can do that too right? How the hell is a poor mortal supposed to know the difference?

If there are 'higher powers' out there I bet you anything they have better ways to occupy themselves than by playing those kind of petty vindictive mind games on vastly inferior intelligences.

Look Read up on or shut up! you know nothing but your own thoughts & your own lernings (witch seems to be 0 when it comes tto matters mostly covered in this thread)

in fact its been going on so long now jules may well have made a flanger

dont roll your eyes at me when you havent taken the time to study what you are talking about

I have studied enough to know that the eternal mysteries of life are just that: mysteries. Anyone who claims certain knowledge of them is either badly misguided (like Subz) or is lying to gain power for themselves (like the Pope).

On a personal level I am genuinely sorry if that offends you Subz, but I would cease to respect myself if I did not speak out on this matter about which I feel very strongly.

I would like to point out that I have family in Israel who are afraid to catch a bus in case some maniac decides to "send them to paradise".

[pHz]

fundamentally i agree with that ...
... everything else builds on self-knowledge and self-belief ... without that how DARE you believe in anything else ???
slainte rob

A lot of people come to a place of self-knowledge and self belief precisely THROUGH their faith, and through the teaching of their faith, their interaction with other believers, and the support they receive from their religeous leaders.
(I'm not saying that is either a good or a bad thing... just that it IS a thing!).
I don't mean this at all unkindly, but I have met quite a few people with low self-esteem, poor social skills, and/or are somewhat inadequate... but who have gone on to become far more confident and able people via religion. In that sense there is no doubt that religion has helped many (although undoubtedly harmed many as well, of course).

in total theoretical agreement there head (although i dont necessarily accept it as a good or admirable thing in practice) ...

(bugger ... thats getting to be a bit of a habit !!! )

/me slaps himself round the face with a small sardine

slainte rob

[headquest]

@ IIRs:

But surely attacking religeous leaders with claims such as your statement that the Pope is "lying to gain power for themselves" is exactly the kind of EXTREEM response that leads young impressionable people to do heinous acts in the name of their religion.

You have every right to be a militant atheist (and I don't know or even particularly care if you are or not), but by making what is essentially a very grave allegation against somebody that I assume you have never met is hardly a measured response to what you perceive as the evils of the world.

Once again, I'm not convinced whether there is no God, one God, or several Gods. For me at present "the jury is out". But if there IS a god, then He/She surely has every right to reveal his or her-self to whomever (s)he chooses, whether it's a prophet, a king, or a carpenter. And they then surely have a responsibility to share the insight/revelation they have gained.

Bearing in mind that these matters are indeed "mysteries" it just seems to me unecessarily inflamatory to accuse the Pope of being evil. You know full well that there are millions who will be very deeply offended by your comments, so I really don't understand what you expect to acheive by spreading your hatred?

[IIRs]

Bearing in mind that these matters are indeed "mysteries" it just seems to me unecessarily inflamatory to accuse the Pope of being evil. You know full well that there are millions who will be very deeply offended by your comments, so I really don't understand what you expect to acheive by spreading your hatred?

Its not inflammatory for the pope to condemn homosexuals then? or to tacitly condone child abuse? or to insist that africans spurn the most effective protection against HIV? All these thing offend me deeply, but it seems I am not allowed to say so..

Is it wrong to hate bigotry and the cynical exploitation of ignorance and suffering?

[headquest]

in total theoretical agreement there head (although i dont necessarily accept it as a good or admirable thing in practice) ...

Agreed. When I was quite a bit younger I had a strong christian faith and was involved in a fairly extreem christian church group. Much of what they did and stood for seemed to me good at the time, but in the longer term some stuff went down that left both me and my wife seriously damaged...

Because of that there is a part of me that wants to heartily agree with everything that IIRs is saying here. But I just can't!

I understand and can feel anger towards organised religious groups, because I got caught in the crossfire. However, over the years I think I/we have come to terms with both the good and the bad of what we went through, and found a measure of peace.

I am now very hesitant about forming any view of other peoples' religious beliefs or activities. I refrain from giving spiritual advice or sharing my own experiences because that is very often unhelpful to others. I have also learnt that it is very easy to get carried away with the views of the crowd you hang with, whether that is religious or secular. The human mind, it seems to me, is very susceptible to external influence.

[headquest]

Its not inflammatory for the pope to condemn homosexuals then? or to tacitly condone child abuse? or to insist that africans spurn the most effective protection against HIV? All these thing offend me deeply, but it seems I am not allowed to say so..

Is it wrong to hate bigotry and the cynical exploitation of ignorance and suffering?

As I said in my post to pHz I am kinda with you in some ways IIRs, and yes I do think those things are offensive.

I just don't think that an agressive line is a particularly producive one.

To coin a phrase, "two wrongs don't make a right". Without wanting to sound religious myself (!) I simply feel that it's best not to judge others, but rather affirm the good stuff and promote understanding (rather than spreading more misunderstanding).

[IIRs]

The human mind, it seems to me, is very susceptible to external influence.

Exactly. So long as there are people actively prosyletising their faith, I consider it my duty to actively ridicule their claims.

[pHz]

another thing ...

(and this HAS also been pointed out before in this debate across other threads but bears repeating)

... ignoring IIRs other comments here his sig is a totally GENERALISED subjective philosophical observation ...

it says "belief in god ... " and NOT "belief in God ... "

... big BIG difference ...

slainte rob

[headquest]

Exactly. So long as there are people actively prosyletising their faith, I consider it my duty to actively ridicule their claims.

But it was YOU who was actively prosyletising YOUR faith... (through your sig) That's what started this whole debate.

[IIRs]

Its not inflammatory for the pope to condemn homosexuals then? or to tacitly condone child abuse? or to insist that africans spurn the most effective protection against HIV? All these thing offend me deeply, but it seems I am not allowed to say so..

Is it wrong to hate bigotry and the cynical exploitation of ignorance and suffering?

As I said in my post to pHz I am kinda with you in some ways IIRs, and yes I do think those things are offensive.

I just don't think that an agressive line is a particularly producive one.

To coin a phrase, "two wrongs don't make a right". Without wanting to sound religious myself (!) I simply feel that it's best not to judge others, but rather affirm the good stuff and promote understanding (rather than spreading more misunderstanding).

I don't really expect to change the minds of those I argue with, but I hope that others reading or listening to our argument who have yet to make up their minds will find my position convincing enough to prevent them being brainwashed at some future time when they are more susceptable, perhaps due to grief at the loss of a loved one.

[headquest]

I don't really expect to change the minds of those I argue with, but I hope that others reading or listening to our argument who have yet to make up their minds will find my position convincing enough to prevent them being brainwashed at some future time when they are more susceptable, perhaps due to grief at the loss of a loved one.

Well, I can completely agree with you in that aim! (even if we choose a different way to go about it )

[pHz]

ahhh ...

slainte rob