Reason 3 is simply awesome.

[spaceman]

Reason is a modular synth. It's not a host and it's not a recording tool. If you like to call it something else, go ahead, but don't compare it with things it isn't.

..as always a lot of comments from people who don't have a clue. "I used reason once and I thought it was.." DOES NOT MAKE YOU A f**king EXPERT

anyway, please do continue

it's not a host but it has a built in sequencer, weird.
i remember ads about reason as "All-In-One Music Production Tool".
For me that resembels a host (just not being able to host plugs hehe).

Tera has a sequencer as well, is that a host too then?
BONES' mum has a beard, does that make her a man?

[superddman]

Reason is a modular synth. It's not a host and it's not a recording tool. If you like to call it something else, go ahead, but don't compare it with things it isn't.

..as always a lot of comments from people who don't have a clue. "I used reason once and I thought it was.." DOES NOT MAKE YOU A f**king EXPERT

anyway, please do continue

it's not a host but it has a built in sequencer, weird.
i remember ads about reason as "All-In-One Music Production Tool".
For me that resembels a host (just not being able to host plugs hehe).

Tera has a sequencer as well, is that a host too then?
BONES' mum has a beard, does that make her a man?

I was talking here about your "average sequencer". One, that allows you to layer and arrange sounds from multiple sources(samples,synths,samplers). You know what I am talking about.
If Tera's seqeucner does that then I will be happy to review it and compare it to the other hosts hehe
lol @ your second line

[herodotus]

How do these discussions of musical software tools get so nasty?

I mean, is it a computer thing, descended from the holy wars of mac vs pc?

Because most, say, guitarists don't have a Fender vs Gibson vs Rickenbacker sort of mentality, but rather a Fender and Gibson and Rickenbacker (and Martin, and Taylor, and....) sort of mentality.

Nor have I noticed a "Bosendorfer sucks! Try a Steinway when you are ready to play with the big boys" contingent among pianists.

I myself (a drummer/composer sort who occasionally sings) would never say no to any musical tool offered to me. Would that there were time to write something on all of them.

But here in the depths of computer-music-land, implying that the reason that some persons music is so 'lame and boring' is because of their choice in software, is perfectly normal.



Weird.

[Benedict]

One word Herod

Children

In cars ppl do the same, they will swear that their $13,000 Kia is just as good as a $225,000 Benz - better actually because they didn't get ripped off by paying too much like those silly rich ppl.

Leave em to it. This has to be about the most popular thread here at the moment when maybe these ppl could be off making music instead - or at least playing with VSTs

[headquest]

fx also outdated

I agree with many of your points, but certainly not this one. While the original Reason 1 effects have obviously become dated, the RV7000 reverb is one of the best software reverbs I have heard (and for comparisson I own Sonar 5's Sonitus, Lexicon and Perfect Space reverbs, for example). The Scream unit is also great, as are the MClass effects added in Reason 3.

I recently posted these tracks which I did in Reason alone:

http://www.propellerheads.se/songs/prof ... splay_main

[by the way, any feedback about the tracks would be very much appreciated!!]

With the track "Encounters" I had some real difficulty at the "mastering" stage. I exported the mix to Adobe Audition for some detailed analysis and identified several problems. However, I was determined to solve them using Reason alone (even though it would have been easier to simply sort it out in Audition)... so that I could upload the songs as .rps files to the Props site. Certainly I couldn't have done any of the audio analysis in Reason, but nor could I have done that in Ableton Live or Sonar 5 PE, my other software options. Different tools for different jobs.

I found that using the MClass effects and tweaking the instruments themselves I was able to acheive just the result I wanted using Reason alone, solving all the problems that had inadvertently arisen in the first mix attempt. Although it wasn't perhaps my easiest option, I did come away feeling very impressed with the fact that this could be done in Reason.

[headquest]

It's not a host but it has a built in sequencer, weird.

Not really. Many keyboard workstations have built in sequencers... (although not as powerful as Reason, of course...)

i remember ads about reason as "All-In-One Music Production Tool". For me that resembels a host (just not being able to host plugs hehe).

You have a good memory then. Reason was indeed described that way when version 1 was launched back in 2000. Since then of course a lot has changed in the Music Technology scene, including the terminology that people use. Back in 2000 I believe that Cubase was not yet SX, Sonar was still Cakewalk Pro Audio, Ableton Live and Tracktion had not yet appeared, the VST revolution was in its infancy, and there were no other modular hosts or VST emulations of modular synths. In that context, Reason was a pretty radical product when it was launched.

Of course much has changed now, including the description that Propellerhead give for Reason 3.0: "Standalone Music Production INSTRUMENT".

I think that description from the Reason box sums up what Reason 3 is pretty well... an instrument that can be used within any of the major hosts, or standalone with its own sequencing abilities. Basically it is a software equivalent of the big keyboard workstations that are popular still among hardware users. Trying to judge it on any other criteria is simply stupid imho.

[fandango]

I agree with many of your points, but certainly not this one. While the original Reason 1 effects have obviously become dated, the RV7000 reverb is one of the best software reverbs I have heard (and for comparisson I own Sonar 5's Sonitus, Lexicon and Perfect Space reverbs, for example).

I sold Reason 2.5 a while ago, but the one thing I always miss about Reason is the RV7000. It's a marvellous reverb. The orchestral presets (like "Film Score") were nice and long but didn't have those 'tinny' tails that many reverbs suffer from.

[headquest]

Ok, so I am just comparing sequencing inside of Reason to sequencing inside of lets say Logic. That's all. Not taking into consideration no vst support.

And from my experience, Reason fell short.

I can't make that comparisson as I don't and haven't ever used Logic.

I have used Cubase and Tracktion, and do currently use Ableton Live and Sonar 5 PE, and I don't find Reason's sequencer falls particularly short for what I need. Personally though I usually enter notes by playing stuff in from a MIDI keybaord, or programming ReDrum patterns. I do any staff notation in Sibelius and never use a MIDI event list, so that rules out a couple of possible shortcomings you might name.

In terms of Reason's sequencer I would like to see a paint tool added, and can't quite understyand why they still haven't put in a tempo/time signature lane. Hopefully in the next release...

Reason's sequencer can be fiddly at times, but the same is true of Sonar or even Live. Certainly the Tracktion piano roll is fiddly compared against Reason's. But they are all powerful, so ultimately it's about getting comfortable with the tools that you do choose to invest your time and money in.

[spaceman]

Ok, so I am just comparing sequencing inside of Reason to sequencing inside of lets say Logic. That's all. Not taking into consideration no vst support.

And from my experience, Reason fell short.

Why would you compare those two? It's the same as saying 'I'm just comparing my Triton workstation to the Cubase SX 3 midi capabilities. The Triton falls short'.. for pete's sake, Reason 3 is not a host like Cubase, Logic, etc. it's an instrument. Why do you people always have to compare apples and pears just to try and win an argument?

Cubase is a crap wave editor!! Logic is an awful hardware compressor! Tracktion is not very good toilet paper! eXT can't make f**king toast! jeez

[BONES]

Yep. I agree. Juno 106's suck ass too

I'd love to know when they stopped. When they came out absolutely no-one took them seriously and then suddenly one day people started talking about them like they have something to offer. I think I'd rather have a Poly800. i certainly opted for a DW8000 over them when I faced that choice.

From what I see, Bones hates the success of Reason because it has buried Orion. Lets face it, more people like it, and it pisses him off.

Actually, its to my advantage that ORION remains somewhat underground is it kind of ensures that Rich can continue developing it the way he wants without the pressure of 10,000 feature requests a day. Every free upgrade has cool and useful things that you monkeys have to pay hundreds of dollars for.

What I find interesting is that he's constantly berating the cost issue. Like he's rubbing two pennies together and coveting his "precious" synthedit VST's. I've downloaded them and I have to say they are about a C-. The invoke no creativity and sound...bland. I have to tweak them way more than I should to get a decent sound and then have to smother them with effects to make them interesting at all.

I'd say that is possibly more an indication of your skill level than anything. But, of course, your welcome to try and make something better.

What's funny is that Reason has been a dominating force and apparently has all these catastrophic limitations.

Madonna has been a dominating force in popular music for 20 years, does that mean that she's any good? Confusion between popularity and actual worth is very shallow.

A snare drum is pretty limited, but can't imagine writing a great Break beat without it.

I can't imagine a great break-beat at all. "Great" and "break-beat" seem mutually exclusive to me.

Reason is a great piece of kit for the people that like it and it doesn't matter if they own other software or not...it stands on its own.

Is that what you used to try my synths out?

I've heard the stuff Bones puts out and it all sounds like he made it with the same 2 or 3 things, went to sleep, woke up, and did it again...and again...and again.

Pretty close. Of course, when you think about it, every rock band in existance pretty much has the same sounds on every song but it doesn't seem to limit them because, like us, they actually write songs. Seems to have been working for ubermeisters like LEAETHER STRIP for a long time too.

It really pisses people off to see such a "simple and highly flawed" piece of software be so successful and they just can't be happy about it.

As you could probably tell from our music, we are totally obssessed with success and popularity, its the only thing that matters to us. Its refreshing that you took the time to really understand where we're coming from. I can appreciate the strain it must have put on your tiny, tiny brain.

Well, my Kurzweil 2600 had a built in sequencer. But it didn't host anything either. Lots of things that don't host plugins have a sequencer. I don't understand the point?

But you could still use it to control other hardware via the accepted method of the time, MIDI cables. Here in 21st Century software-land, we have a slightly different accepted method, the VST/DX/AU plugin which Propellerheads choose to completely bypass. Their attitude reminds me a lot of the way Microsoft try to subvert standards to maintain their market position.

Not really. Many keyboard workstations have built in sequencers... (although not as powerful as Reason, of course...)

Joke, right? Even my Trinity had 4 track audio recording in its sequencer in 1998.

You have a good memory then. Reason was indeed described that way when version 1 was launched back in 2000. Since then of course a lot has changed in the Music Technology scene, including the terminology that people use. Back in 2000 I believe that Cubase was not yet SX, Sonar was still Cakewalk Pro Audio, Ableton Live and Tracktion had not yet appeared, the VST revolution was in its infancy, and there were no other modular hosts or VST emulations of modular synths. In that context, Reason was a pretty radical product when it was launched.

Come on, Fruityloops had been around for more than two years and ORION was at about Version 1.9. If those two products aren't incredibly similar concepts to Reason, I don't know what is. Especially as at that time Fruity didn't support VSTi yet [but it did support VST effects]. Then there's trackers. There was and is absolutely nothing innovative at all about Reason.

Basically it is a software equivalent of the big keyboard workstations that are popular still among hardware users.

Except that hardware workstations don't require a special protocol to work with other hardware. Reason would be like a hardware workstation with no MIDI out.

Why would you compare those two? It's the same as saying 'I'm just comparing my Triton workstation to the Cubase SX 3 midi capabilities. The Triton falls short'.

Why is that not a valid comparison when you are looking for a sequencer to use to make music? I think its a perfectly valid comparison and I would imagine that the Triton might actually be pretty close, given the tighter integration of all its elements. Trinity's sequencer would certainly suit me better than Cubase.
I think when they launched Reason, Propellerheads definitely looked at it as a complete virtual studio and they have probably been forced to change tack slightly in an effort to avoid comparisons with more fully featured applications.
I look at something and see how well it addresses my needs. I settle for the things that do the best job with the fewest compromises. At the end of the day I cannot imagine any application that involves more compromises than Reason, almost completely due to Propellerheads' refusal to adpot industry standards. Although I haven't tried it since version 1, where it didn't stack up in any department, I am completely willing to accept that it has some great tools and that it sounds fantastic at Version 3. So what? It still has gaps that need to be filled by a proper host which is totally unacceptable given that I cannot integrate it into any host, except via a proprietary protocol that is a huge PITA for a lot of people because Propellerheads don't give other developers the support they need to make it work properly.

[Rangtangtang]

It sounds a bit like a fruity loops to me.

[Teksonik]

I guess we just can't understand why you would pay more for Reason and get less musical creation power. Why pay more and get less when you could pay less and get more. The "Reason is an instrument and not a host" argument doesn't make sense. Orion is an instrument (Toxic 2,Ultran,WaveDream,WaspXT,Sampler,Plucked String,Scorpion,Drums synths etc) AND it can host vst/vsti's making it an open ended system, AND it can record audio, AND it has a realtime Reverb Impulse Response Processor, AND it's less expensive than Reason. Hey it's your money (you guys DID buy Reason right?)so if you want to pay more and get less then more power to ya. But expect to take a little good natured ribbing in the process.

[spaceman]

Why would you compare those two? It's the same as saying 'I'm just comparing my Triton workstation to the Cubase SX 3 midi capabilities. The Triton falls short'.

Why is that not a valid comparison when you are looking for a sequencer to use to make music? I think its a perfectly valid comparison and I would imagine that the Triton might actually be pretty close, given the tighter integration of all its elements. Trinity's sequencer would certainly suit me better than Cubase.
I think when they launched Reason, Propellerheads definitely looked at it as a complete virtual studio and they have probably been forced to change tack slightly in an effort to avoid comparisons with more fully featured applications.
I look at something and see how well it addresses my needs. I settle for the things that do the best job with the fewest compromises. At the end of the day I cannot imagine any application that involves more compromises than Reason, almost completely due to Propellerheads' refusal to adpot industry standards. Although I haven't tried it since version 1, where it didn't stack up in any department, I am completely willing to accept that it has some great tools and that it sounds fantastic at Version 3. So what? It still has gaps that need to be filled by a proper host which is totally unacceptable given that I cannot integrate it into any host, except via a proprietary protocol that is a huge PITA for a lot of people because Propellerheads don't give other developers the support they need to make it work properly.

your projecting your demands and needs upon other again.. this has been mentioned many many times before.. not every tool needs to be able to do everything. That's just such a ridiculous notion.

The props have obviously long decided NOT to join the normal sequencing crowd and have instead slowly (especially slowly ) developed Reason towards an instrument, which happens to have sequencing capabilities as well. It was first branded as a virtual studio but it's their damn right to change that if they want.. and they have.

I really can't see why they wouldn't be allowed to do so? As mentioned before, no one is going to give Virsyn shit because Tera is a synth and not a host, or no one is going to complain that Cubase doesn't have advanced video editing features. Why does Reason have to be a full-featured host? If you want one of those use Cubase, Logic, FL, Orion, etc.. no one is forcing anyone to do anything.

If you want an extremely versatile, great sounding modular instrument with sequencing capabilities, look at Reason. If not, well don't be a f**king idiot and don't use it

[diverdee]

Whatever works for y'all I guess.
I tried Orion but didn't really like it.
I didn't like reason initially, then one day I 'grokked' it - it helped my stagnated creativity, so it was worth it to me for that reason alone.
The same with ableton live, i'd been trying with tracktion & (even though I basically liked it) it didn't really do anything for me - I tried ableton live & one day it just 'clicked', so I had to buy it.
It's not all about features & cost - it's about what works for you & being mature enough to realise that the world doesn't revolve around you, your needs, likes & dislikes & that different people have different capabilities, strengths, weaknesses & working practices & that they find their creativity blossoms using different tools.
There's no right or wrong, no matter how you may try & convince yourself & others.
Some people still work with atari's & hardware, or reel to reel tape machines - whatever works for y'all is cool.
Pissing contests over gear like this - schoolyard tactics, bored or depressed, educationally subnormal, or trolls.

[spaceman]

I guess we just can't understand why you would pay more for Reason and get less musical creation power..

less?!?!?!? that's a statement from someone who has never used Reason the way it should be used. If you don't know Reason 3 then for god's sake, shut the f**k up and go annoy some kids in the street or something