*Very* true. I normally get the guitar player to do one or two passes with the amp wound right up. After that, any layered overdubs go down with lower gain, often much lower, for exactly the reasons you mention, Greg. I usually back the gain off till the pick is just nicely "uncovered".Lunch Money wrote:...when you start stacking and layering, you're generally better off with less gain in order to maintain clarity, articulation, and the pick attack.
Greg
Guitar players, The soundclick MP3 demo page got updated !
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- KVRian
- 1219 posts since 12 Aug, 2002
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders - Lao Tzu
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- KVRAF
- 1527 posts since 3 Apr, 2002 from desolation row
This thread reminds me of guitar shops in the early 90's 
.
....
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- KVRian
- 1219 posts since 12 Aug, 2002
pw wrote:This thread reminds me of guitar shops in the early 90's
I used to get a real kick out of the blokes girlfriends standing there trying not to look too bored. A woman has to *really* love a man to walk into a guitar shop with him.
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders - Lao Tzu
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Killvehicle, I want you to know up front that I've come to respect you in this thread, so I promise you I'm not just saying this to be contradictory or argumentative. I'd love to be wrong:
I checked into some of those bands... and while the tone is pretty good, I don't see how it's "thick". Suffocate, in particular, had VERY fizzy distortion on the album you mentioned. If I didn't know any better, I'd say it was recorded with Steinberg Warp VST. I checked their more recent stuff, too, because I figured, "well... KV DID admit it was an older album," and the tone was better, but then they screwed up their approach to recording vocals so the song overall wasn't as good.
Couldn't get any Entombed as their official site seems down.
Dillinger Escape Plan seemed like a very cool band! But their MP3s were only in 20kps on one site and 48kps on another. Not nearly enough resolution to make a real judgement. I couldn't even tell which tones were the guitar and which were compression artifacts.
Then at the SOAD homepage, with even their low resolution, the MP3 for BYOB was way thicker than anything else I had given a try. I went back to the Suffocate tracks I had downloaded and tried to A/B them, and you're right, there was no comparison. I'm willing to agree that SOAD have kind of a hybrid sound-- layering standard Marshall with either another amp or a "pedal driven" Marshall as outlined, but the overall impression was WAY more powerful and "heavy" than straight ahead "hi-gain all the way". The riffs just slammed you upside the head.
In any case, using the word "thick" again instead of just saying "hi gain", there's no way that Suffocate's "Pierced from the Inside" or "Deceit" were 10 or 20 times "thicker" than SOAD's "BYOB" overall. They're half as thick, at best. Suffocate's distortion is too fizzy to really slam you against a wall.
Part of what makes Suffocate sound so damn destructive in a good way (and I've been saying this all along as a compliment, not an insult!) is that they know how to write that kind of song. They're good at it. They have the right vocalist. They have the right drummer. The complete package = heavy-a$$ S#!t. But the tone by itself? Not thick or punishing. Buzzy and fizzy.
Now, that said--
I know that everyone has their own preferences, and there's no WAY that I can tell you how to define "thick". The only reason I bring it up again is because it's been suggested that I don't know what I'm talking about.
As it turns out, when I listened to examples, including the bands KW suggested and the clips Prizo posted, I heard exactly what I expected to hear. No surprises there. So my assessments, tips, questions, or whatever else I've been saying about "thick tone" and "hi gain" is just as informed as I've always felt until I was made to question it. Now that I've done some investigating (and no, it wasn't exhaustive, but I haven't the ambition to keep tracking down bands in a genre I don't tend to listen to) my opinion is merely further solidified.
Maybe SOAD aren't everybody's thing. I'm not a huge fan myself, I just thought of them because I was trying to come up with examples of heavy sounds that were at least somewhat "legitimate" (ie. not like Evanescence who DO have great heavy tone but are a pop band). Actually, hearing these SOAD tunes while doing my own 'research' is making me kind of enjoy them... I might even pick up a disc. Back to distortion: during the "fast" riffing for "Question" it's practically crunch and not even "heavy", but the overall effect is much more impressive than the fast riffing I heard in the other "metal" songs.
I dunno. I'm sure you still won't agree with me, but I wanted to at least show that I'm willing to follow up on suggestions and give it a shot. I think you should give SOAD another listen. The distortion IS less, as you indicate, but it's also fizz/buzz- free, which makes for a HUGE sound!
Greg
I checked into some of those bands... and while the tone is pretty good, I don't see how it's "thick". Suffocate, in particular, had VERY fizzy distortion on the album you mentioned. If I didn't know any better, I'd say it was recorded with Steinberg Warp VST. I checked their more recent stuff, too, because I figured, "well... KV DID admit it was an older album," and the tone was better, but then they screwed up their approach to recording vocals so the song overall wasn't as good.
Couldn't get any Entombed as their official site seems down.
Dillinger Escape Plan seemed like a very cool band! But their MP3s were only in 20kps on one site and 48kps on another. Not nearly enough resolution to make a real judgement. I couldn't even tell which tones were the guitar and which were compression artifacts.
Then at the SOAD homepage, with even their low resolution, the MP3 for BYOB was way thicker than anything else I had given a try. I went back to the Suffocate tracks I had downloaded and tried to A/B them, and you're right, there was no comparison. I'm willing to agree that SOAD have kind of a hybrid sound-- layering standard Marshall with either another amp or a "pedal driven" Marshall as outlined, but the overall impression was WAY more powerful and "heavy" than straight ahead "hi-gain all the way". The riffs just slammed you upside the head.
In any case, using the word "thick" again instead of just saying "hi gain", there's no way that Suffocate's "Pierced from the Inside" or "Deceit" were 10 or 20 times "thicker" than SOAD's "BYOB" overall. They're half as thick, at best. Suffocate's distortion is too fizzy to really slam you against a wall.
Part of what makes Suffocate sound so damn destructive in a good way (and I've been saying this all along as a compliment, not an insult!) is that they know how to write that kind of song. They're good at it. They have the right vocalist. They have the right drummer. The complete package = heavy-a$$ S#!t. But the tone by itself? Not thick or punishing. Buzzy and fizzy.
Now, that said--
I know that everyone has their own preferences, and there's no WAY that I can tell you how to define "thick". The only reason I bring it up again is because it's been suggested that I don't know what I'm talking about.
As it turns out, when I listened to examples, including the bands KW suggested and the clips Prizo posted, I heard exactly what I expected to hear. No surprises there. So my assessments, tips, questions, or whatever else I've been saying about "thick tone" and "hi gain" is just as informed as I've always felt until I was made to question it. Now that I've done some investigating (and no, it wasn't exhaustive, but I haven't the ambition to keep tracking down bands in a genre I don't tend to listen to) my opinion is merely further solidified.
Maybe SOAD aren't everybody's thing. I'm not a huge fan myself, I just thought of them because I was trying to come up with examples of heavy sounds that were at least somewhat "legitimate" (ie. not like Evanescence who DO have great heavy tone but are a pop band). Actually, hearing these SOAD tunes while doing my own 'research' is making me kind of enjoy them... I might even pick up a disc.
Back to distortion: during the "fast" riffing for "Question" it's practically crunch and not even "heavy", but the overall effect is much more impressive than the fast riffing I heard in the other "metal" songs.I dunno. I'm sure you still won't agree with me, but I wanted to at least show that I'm willing to follow up on suggestions and give it a shot. I think you should give SOAD another listen.
The distortion IS less, as you indicate, but it's also fizz/buzz- free, which makes for a HUGE sound!Greg
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championrabbit championrabbit https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=53166
- KVRian
- 559 posts since 30 Dec, 2004
You are (of course) absolutely correct!prizo wrote:Its impossible to waste your time on the interwebs.championrabbit wrote: This thread has all the ingredients of a classic internet WASTE OF TIME.
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- KVRist
- 499 posts since 9 Oct, 2005
As much as I love SOAD, Malakian's tone is much more crunchy on Mesmerize/Hypnotize than in Toxicity/Steal this Album (same studio sessions). It just seems they lowered the gain on the new ones. Don't get me wrong though, it's still powerfull the way they mix things. What's interesting is that vocals + backing vox + harmonies are really up front.
Last edited by cheul on Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 1442 posts since 30 May, 2005
Sorry sir,cheul wrote:Come on, I'm a guitarist, not a great one, but I've played enough to know that. I was just asking here because I read about this technique on another thread (related to POD). So I was just talking of ADDING single note-riff to "support" the traditionnal takes of the main riff, not splitting chords in different takes.fritzman wrote:[It sounds VERY different when you play more than one note with distortion.
As to lowering the gain when layering, I know that already. It's good for clarity, but on the other side it doesn't do the trick for thickness. And here is the goal : thickness and clarity.
didn't want to step on your toes. Why not ask bmanic what he was talking about? With this technique you will get a different sound and not necessarily more clarity. That's the way I see it and therefor I wrote that you get a very different sound when playing single note.
Best wishes, FRitz
In the end will be the word.
Check out some of my music at www.fritzmetal.de
Check out some of my music at www.fritzmetal.de
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2054 posts since 3 Jun, 2001 from Not far from Australia
DSP with attitude
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- KVRer
- 10 posts since 2 Aug, 2004
damn this amp sim is giving out some great high gain. I might post some dry samples for you to mess with to see if its possible to do something with my setup ... A sound blaster live with a home made pre amp using kx drivers and a £150 sg copy hehe
hehe-
- KVRAF
- 2247 posts since 13 Dec, 2003
Midiworks wrote:As promissed.
http://www.soundspectral.com/Demos/HighGain2R2.mp3
Thanks Killvehicle !!!
The Best High Gain in the Vst world
The last clip is awesome!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2054 posts since 3 Jun, 2001 from Not far from Australia
1st part my amp simdimitar wrote: The last clip is awesome!
2nd part original
Last edited by Midiworks on Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSP with attitude
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Wow, this is sounding truly impressive!Midiworks wrote:As promissed.
http://www.soundspectral.com/Demos/HighGain2R2.mp3
Killvehicle, what input device(s) did you use (D.I. box, Hi-Z ins, converters, etc.)?
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRian
- 1442 posts since 30 May, 2005
Yes,Midiworks wrote:As promissed.
http://www.soundspectral.com/Demos/HighGain2R2.mp3
Thanks Killvehicle !!!
Impressive. Cool stuff, Rene!
All the best, FRitz
In the end will be the word.
Check out some of my music at www.fritzmetal.de
Check out some of my music at www.fritzmetal.de
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Rene, for the first time ever I had the chance to try out Xmas Amp.
To my surprise, under Logic/PC there's no Sound coming out of it at all, regardless of how much I'm fiddling with parameters. I also loaded it via EnergyFX (didn't try eXT in standalone mode), still no sound.
Any ideas?
To my surprise, under Logic/PC there's no Sound coming out of it at all, regardless of how much I'm fiddling with parameters. I also loaded it via EnergyFX (didn't try eXT in standalone mode), still no sound.
Any ideas?
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.