Tracktion Software

Jeremy_NSL · Post by **Jeremy_NSL** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:46 pm

Rendering in Tracktion has always had some serious issues. Personally I'll never trust it - I just use tapeit now.

But that doesn't help much if you want to freeze or bounce down...

pHz · Post by **pHz** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:48 pm

oh ... i meant WIRED ...

(i teach painting for fukcs sake ... i cant spell !!! )

(seriously ... i have real problems with that whole 'ie' or 'ei' area of spelling ... words that use those two letters just NEVER look right to me whichever way round ... )

slainte

rob

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:03 pm

I didn't know you taught painting. I've tried my hand at Watercolour here and there, but my best one was just a test exercise...

Just trying out colours, so I wasn't intending for it to be a final product. As a result, I didn't pay close attention to the shadows, and each of these has shadow from a different "light source":

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v137/ ... inting.jpg

(there's one with just the painting, but this one shows the original subjects, too.

)

It got framed anyhow and given to a friend who's living in England. Maple Leaf and all that, ya know...!

pHz · Post by **pHz** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:35 pm

painting among other things (currently painting & other 'fine art' skills / photography / media studies / digital image manipulation / art history / contemporary art (installations etc) / careers) ... although by education / training im a painter (landscape) and sculptor (ephemeral work using found materials - recording using photographs) ...

... thats a pretty decent watercolour technique you got there actually greg ... and i always find the 'accidental' works are often the best (a parallel to recording musical jams 'just in case' ) ...

slainte

rob

FigBug · Post by **FigBug** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:24 pm

do you have dither turned on or off?

pHz · Post by **pHz** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:28 pm

off ... i hope ...

slainte

rob

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:14 am

Lunch Money wrote:I tested by doing complete renders of the example song, "Tesseract", which to my knowledge doesn't contain any plug-ins that would cause random or 'human' error/behaviour.

It contains loads actually! Chorus is a modulation effect: there's no way to sync the LFOs though.. the mda filter has LFO modulation, and pitch shifters can be thought of as modulation effects in this case. JX10's oscillators are evidently free-running when in mono mode..

I rendered Tesseract twice, inverted one, and the kick & bass dissapeared.. I would say that was exactly right.

djsubject · Post by **djsubject** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:04 am

dose this happen with dry! sounds??

eg a sampler? or a synth with all fx & lfo roughting killed?

i have never come across this

Subz

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:56 am

IIRs wrote:It contains loads actually! Chorus is a modulation effect: there's no way to sync the LFOs though.. the mda filter has LFO modulation, and pitch shifters can be thought of as modulation effects in this case. JX10's oscillators are evidently free-running when in mono mode..

I know that Chorus is a modulation effect, but if it always starts modulating the same frequency at the same time and has a fixed rate, it will still produce the same result each time.

I rendered Tesseract twice, inverted one, and the kick & bass dissapeared.. I would say that was exactly right.

Ah, but what happens when you convert them both to mono and then invert one?

Greg

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:09 pm

Lunch Money wrote: I know that Chorus is a modulation effect, but if it always starts modulating the same frequency at the same time and has a fixed rate, it will still produce the same result each time.

The results will only be identical if the phase of the LFOs is the same. This will not be the case in two successive renders, but if you have e-to-e turned off it might be the same for every first render, and every second etc, because in each case the oscillators & LFO's will have progressed through their cycle by the same amount.

Lunch Money wrote:Ah, but what happens when you convert them both to mono and then invert one?

Don't know

how is that relevant?

djsubject · Post by **djsubject** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:32 pm

dose it happen with a sampler playing dry samples?

if not then it is not a bug? IMO

analog stuff works in the same way

lfo's add a element of randemness (unless set to synk & retriger)

Subz

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:44 pm

IIRs wrote:
Lunch Money wrote: I know that Chorus is a modulation effect, but if it always starts modulating the same frequency at the same time and has a fixed rate, it will still produce the same result each time.
The results will only be identical if the phase of the LFOs is the same. This will not be the case in two successive renders, but if you have e-to-e turned off it might be the same for every first render, and every second etc, because in each case the oscillators & LFO's will have progressed through their cycle by the same amount.

This is what I'm saying. Did I miss one parameter? OK, I thought it was obvious, but if it's required: If it starts modulating at the same frequency at the same time and has a fixed rate (doesn't this all mean that it'll be in the same phase?) and also has the same phase, it should be identical.

I don't know why in the virtual world where it's actually MORE work to make non-fixed LFO, why they'd bother throwing the element of a random seed into it. Surely the designers know that the users are going to want identical renders each time....

Lunch Money wrote:Ah, but what happens when you convert them both to mono and then invert one?
Don't know how is that relevant?

How is it NOT relevant? In your test, you're assuming the cancellation of the middle is telling all. Well there can be ghost traces of the bass or kick drum if they're not panned dead centre that you still won't really 'detect' when there are other elements of the mix present. If you sum to mono and then invert, you should get complete silence in identical renders, which is a lot more revealing than "the bass and kick drum have disappeared."

Greg

rich_h · Post by **rich_h** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:07 pm

Lunch Money wrote:This is what I'm saying. Did I miss one parameter? OK, I thought it was obvious, but if it's required: If it starts modulating at the same frequency at the same time and has a fixed rate (doesn't this all mean that it'll be in the same phase?) and also has the same phase, it should be identical.

Only if the LFOs are reset at the start of the render. If they are free running, then the render will differ depending on what point the LFOs were through their cycle.

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:10 pm

Lunch Money wrote:How is it NOT relevant? In your test, you're assuming the cancellation of the middle is telling all.

No I'm not, nothing to do with the middle: it is the fact that only the parts I would expect to be identical everytime cancel out. ie: all the parts that don't pass through some sort of modulation effect, or involve free running oscillators.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:05 pm

Gotcha. I was forgetting that we still hadn't tested for the free-running nature of those modulated effects.

Which brings me to my next point:

I rendered a track with NO modulation five times, and each one was identical.

So, it seems fair to conclude that it's not Tracktion but one of your plug-ins that's the culprit. In this case, if WS is the only plug-in being used on that track, it's WS.

A test, suggested to me inadvertently by IIRs: instead of rendering that track a few times by itself, render any tracks that use modulation (heck, I just rendered ALL tracks, to be sure) to audio, and then render the whole mix. Your results should be identical each time.

Greg

Tracktion Software

KVR Audio

VSTI rendering, please confirm