There have been sooooo many posts about it, ever since PDC was implemented, including many that had the particpiation of T2 beta testers. I am suprised and dissapointed that this is the first attempt by Mackie to collect information on the PDC issue. I am glad valley has been keeping track though.Beno wrote:Well lets maybe get together a sticky post for this,eh?
People can post all there issues. One per post. With a preset list of things we need to have in each post.
Ben
Is PDC impossible to get right?
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- KVRAF
- 1527 posts since 3 Apr, 2002 from desolation row
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- KVRAF
- 1600 posts since 1 Apr, 2003 from Seattle, WA
pw, I did not mean to infer that we have not been keeping track. On the contrary. But having interested users post reproducible problems is always helpfull, even if they are duplicates of bugs we are already aware of. And since people are discussing it now, I figured it was a good idea.
Ben
Ben
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- KVRist
- 141 posts since 13 Oct, 2003
Is the latency issue always consistent through an entire track or do some situations sound as though they slow down and then kind of snap back into place?
We have been recording a project where the drums were done first. 6 tracks. Listened back and all was OK. Routed them out to track 7 and threw Izotope Ozone on it (with the delay compensation switched on). Started recording bass and guitars. When listening back we would come across areas where it just sounded like it fell apart timing wise. I’d mark those areas and we would go back and listen but the problem would just seem to vanish. To a normal person this would seem like a non-issue. OK, you are hearing things. But, to someone who records all the time you can see how this issue could very quickly escalate into a situation where you feel like you’re losing your mind. The delay isn’t huge so in some instances our guitar and bass tracks actually nailed the out-of-time-ed-ness that was generated by the plug-in, but on playback the drums were no longer out of time in those spots so the new tracks were. I know the simple answer is “Don’t use Ozone during tracking” but I’m trying to understand why it does this in the first place.
We have been recording a project where the drums were done first. 6 tracks. Listened back and all was OK. Routed them out to track 7 and threw Izotope Ozone on it (with the delay compensation switched on). Started recording bass and guitars. When listening back we would come across areas where it just sounded like it fell apart timing wise. I’d mark those areas and we would go back and listen but the problem would just seem to vanish. To a normal person this would seem like a non-issue. OK, you are hearing things. But, to someone who records all the time you can see how this issue could very quickly escalate into a situation where you feel like you’re losing your mind. The delay isn’t huge so in some instances our guitar and bass tracks actually nailed the out-of-time-ed-ness that was generated by the plug-in, but on playback the drums were no longer out of time in those spots so the new tracks were. I know the simple answer is “Don’t use Ozone during tracking” but I’m trying to understand why it does this in the first place.
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- KVRist
- 169 posts since 4 Mar, 2005
@beno: please make a sticky on that issue!
The missing PDC in SOME cases you don't know can destroy and smear your whole work and the most people esp. new users do NOT know and maybe loose a lot of time.
I found out about lacking PDC issues by accident when experimenting with PLParEQ and SIR together with multiout-VSTis. The Plugs have a very high latency (8192 Samples), so it was obvious, that there was something wrong and I got help by discussion and ideas for workarounds here at KVR from the users djsubject and IIR. But with smaller plug latencies just the work will be destroyed and sounds strange. That can drive you nuts. Especially on percussive work together with compressors/limiters which often have small latencies due to lookahead-time.
The issues I see at the moment.
1) Latency Effects only on SOME Tracks after Multiout-Racks that are spread over multiple Tracks.
e.g. a rack with a multiout vst (e.g. BFD, RM IV) and a plugin with latency after the rack but not on all tracks where the rack is placed e.g. EQ or COMP just on the snare but not on the Room Mics where also snare can be heard.
--> No PDC if all the MIDI is on one input track for the RACK, which is usually the case (recording eDrum MIDI, MIDI Output from step sequencers, MIDI output from drumbrains like jamstix...)
A possible Workaround at the moment could be to add latency to all other tracks by an identical effect chain wrapped in a rack which is bypassed (dry signal only) or Sample/AudioDelay helper Plugins (e.g. free plugs from voxengo here).
2) Latency Plugs WITHIN Racks, especially with multiout-VSTs or other modular setups which splits signals to different effect chains.
--> NO PDC here and I can't use my favourite EQ, Comp here without building up complex setups with sample delay helper tools after calculating the latency of each signal chain manually!
Workaround 3: Don't use Plugs with latency...
.. but that is no real alternative if you just bought cool and sometimes expensive plugins...
Issues like that run against the philosophy of Tracktion as I understand it, which I love and that convinced me to switch from another big host to Tracktion.
So please as soon as it is possible or at least inform new users with a sticky.
The missing PDC in SOME cases you don't know can destroy and smear your whole work and the most people esp. new users do NOT know and maybe loose a lot of time.
I found out about lacking PDC issues by accident when experimenting with PLParEQ and SIR together with multiout-VSTis. The Plugs have a very high latency (8192 Samples), so it was obvious, that there was something wrong and I got help by discussion and ideas for workarounds here at KVR from the users djsubject and IIR. But with smaller plug latencies just the work will be destroyed and sounds strange. That can drive you nuts. Especially on percussive work together with compressors/limiters which often have small latencies due to lookahead-time.
The issues I see at the moment.
1) Latency Effects only on SOME Tracks after Multiout-Racks that are spread over multiple Tracks.
e.g. a rack with a multiout vst (e.g. BFD, RM IV) and a plugin with latency after the rack but not on all tracks where the rack is placed e.g. EQ or COMP just on the snare but not on the Room Mics where also snare can be heard.
--> No PDC if all the MIDI is on one input track for the RACK, which is usually the case (recording eDrum MIDI, MIDI Output from step sequencers, MIDI output from drumbrains like jamstix...)
A possible Workaround at the moment could be to add latency to all other tracks by an identical effect chain wrapped in a rack which is bypassed (dry signal only) or Sample/AudioDelay helper Plugins (e.g. free plugs from voxengo here).
2) Latency Plugs WITHIN Racks, especially with multiout-VSTs or other modular setups which splits signals to different effect chains.
--> NO PDC here and I can't use my favourite EQ, Comp here without building up complex setups with sample delay helper tools after calculating the latency of each signal chain manually!
Workaround 3: Don't use Plugs with latency...
.. but that is no real alternative if you just bought cool and sometimes expensive plugins...
Issues like that run against the philosophy of Tracktion as I understand it, which I love and that convinced me to switch from another big host to Tracktion.
So please as soon as it is possible or at least inform new users with a sticky.
Last edited by naturestoned on Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 415 posts since 14 Dec, 2004
What would really help, is a List of Plug-ins that are known to add Latency. Not necesserily create problems in Tracktion. But, MAY, so that if I decided to add a plugin thats on the list i can be AWARE of possible issues!!!
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- KVRist
- 169 posts since 4 Mar, 2005
IMHO you don't need such a list - too many plugins exist and who should take care???What would really help, is a List of Plug-ins that are known to add Latency.
you can simply drag any plugin on an empty tracktion track and look in the track options panel (click on the track name), where Tracktion auto-calculates the necessary auto-advance time (PDC IS working correctly in that case)
If there is the value 0.0 -> no latency
if not -> latency introduced by the plugin.
As an alternative and for other hosts and for exact information about the plugin delay in samples you can always check with the VST Plugin Analyser from Christian Budde http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1287.html
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- KVRist
- 169 posts since 4 Mar, 2005
---pseudostickyinfobump--- 