Who here has any 'formal' music qualifications?

[shamann]

On the other hand, I am not very creative, and I struggle to make the simplest music today. I don't know why it is. My understanding of the concepts is deep and complete. But my creativity and my ability to execute an idea is very poor. I can sit in with just about anyone, on keyboard or on guitar. I can look at any piece of music (ANYTHING, even 20th century and atonal stuff), and understand it. I can analyze counterpoint. or any type of orchestration.

Funny, we're the exact opposite. I couldn't sit in with someone on anything if my life depended on it, but I am very creative. I can easily turn someone's sneeze into music (in fact that is often what my stuff sounds like . In which scenario, it is perhaps a benefit that I am an analytical neophyte when I approach music).

[Kingston]

It's almost a rule those people are one trick ponies, able to do just the one thing they once learned.

Dunno about that. Most blues players don't have a formal musical training, and that's never a problem when playing or jamming a standard 12-bar blues pattern .

Indeed, and I addressed that in my post: stray for from the usual pattern and they'll drop (in general), which you for some reason didn't include in the quote.

[jackson]

Grade 6 practical, Grade 7 theory, both by the age of 12. Practicing classical music for a couple of hours a day, and having to basically learn Italian all outside of school was too much pressure. I quit playing and took a break from music for a few years.

Certainly, I feel that having learnt all the foundations of music is great and still helps me today (14 years later), but really for the most part, it doesn't come in handy on a day-to-day basis as my music is predominantly rhythm based.

When we have a child, I'm going to make sure they study jazz theory as opposed to classical. Much more relevant to today's music, IMO.

[Kingston]

...one of the reasons one very rarely hears oboe or french horn improvisation anywhere.

Hm. Just some thoughts -
Many concertoes call for cadenzas that are not provided by the composer. The performers often write these, and prepare them for performance. This might not satisfy your personal or the more traditional jazz kind of definition of improvisation, but it certainly requires musicianship at high level and a deep understanding of the "chord progression".
Also, many baroque musicians "battle" within the frameworks of loosely defined fugues, for instance, which certainly is improvisation. If you talk to them using jazz terms they might go "huh" but I'm sure that works the other way around as well.

I was generalising of course. Something that seems to have been forgotten through the ages is that during baroque perioid, and awful lot of what we see now as notes carved in stone was infact meant as improvisational guideline. And of course in organ music from that period, as you pointed out, only bass note is provided (forgot the correct term for it), leaving the rest up to the musician to improvise, although under fairly strictly formulated umbrella.

[theFridge]

Nope. Just a coupla diplomas: Audio Engineering and Film/TV

Since when did ya needs learnin' to make music?

[tee boy]

I have an equivalent of grade 8 in jazz piano and guitar, and progressed quite a bit self taught from that on, similarly with theory. At some point I also studied a bit of string ensemble arrangement.

Let's face it, it helps immensely. All the bullshit you hear from people with no musical education and the uselessness of it is easily tested: play with them. It's almost a rule those people are one trick ponies, able to do just the one thing they once learned. Stray a bit further from there, and they'll drop. Explaining and exchanging musical ideas is a lot easier with a common language as well.

There's a bit of a problem as well, especially with highly trained jazz musicians. They were subjected to narrow classifications while training and they might be almost blind to the world outside that. The proof is all the nu-jazz bands that all sound the same. That's the thing they learned in school and are unable to scretch.

One thing I find baffling is the purely classical "musicians". I use brackets because I find improvisation to be quite the essential part of musicianship. I've had enlightening conversations with people in leads roles in full orchestras, who have been doing it for 15-20 years, and they might have no clue on how to improvise. I find that extremely odd.

"yeah, just kind of float on top of that chord progression"

"huh?"

...one of the reasons one very rarely hears oboe or french horn improvisation anywhere.

I think it is a bold statement to suggest that classical performers are less equipped to improv (if thats what you're saying ofcourse). Check out Cziffra in this vid

http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_id=p ... x6w7148kQC

You'll find that good soloists will be able to impro up there with the best of 'em. Especially those playing polyphonic instruments.

TB

[ollybfocusritenovation]

me me me.

ich bein un tonmeister





(i don't speak german)

[topaz]

I have no training at all, but I did get to play with some of the UK's top session musicians and did loads of gigs with them all over europe

does practical theory help, of course it does.

but not alone.

[topaz]

very well put indeed.

I saw many a 1 trick pony fall flat on their face at jam sessions when they didn't know the oh so basic modal system.

All the bullshit you hear from people with no musical education and the uselessness of it is easily tested: play with them. It's almost a rule those people are one trick ponies, able to do just the one thing they once learned. Stray a bit further from there, and they'll drop.

[Kingston]

I think it is a bold statement to suggest that classical performers are less equipped to improv (if thats what you're saying ofcourse). Check out Cziffra in this vid

http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_id=p ... x6w7148kQC

You'll find that good soloists will be able to impro up there with the best of 'em. Especially those playing polyphonic instruments.

TB

It's not a bold statement at all, merely based on my experience when dealing with purely classical musicians. There are always exceptions to rules, but you merely need to talk to the players of any symphonic orcestra to find out. You'll be very surprised. (I was as well)

This was in fact a bit problem for me when I was still at the uni. Our music department was classical only, and mostly brass players.Of course I tried to get these guys to play horn sections for me. No notes, no players! They simply did not understand improvisation, most of them having played actively for more than eight years.

I also frequented a pub back at my home town where very well respected orhestral musicians hanged out, too.


Same thing with these. At least some of them were experienced enough to understand what it meant, but they had honestly never found the need for it.

[shamann]

It's not a bold statement at all, merely based on my experience when dealing with purely classical musicians. There are always exceptions to rules, but you merely need to talk to the players of any symphonic orcestra to find out. You'll be very surprised. (I was as well)

I don't think it's a bold statement, either. Having met a lot of classical musicians, I'd have to agree that not many have an aptitude for improv in the sense it is used in jazz. I think it is just a different approach to playing, different skills learned. There's really no equivalent notion of riffing in classical repertory recital. I guess it's offensive to some to point this out.

[Kingston]

There's really no equivalent notion of riffing in classical repertory recital. I guess it's offensive to some to point this out.

There is somewhat, in loosely classical (whatever that term means) based folk oriented music, and baroque "fugue battles" as pointed out by Hovmod. Musicians that play these are a very rare breed, unfortunately.

Man some of those Cembalo maestros.. Iron Maiden was 300 years too late.

[herodotus]

I was 3/4 of the way through a minor in music (majored in philosophy) when the scholarship ran dry. I just couldn't make myself pay for the rest. Too bloody expensive for such a financially useless degree.

I also took drum lessons for 4+ years from Floyd Thompson and Marv Dahlgren (mostly Floyd, who was a superior educator, albeit one with some HARDCORE halitosis). These were much more useful than anything that I learned in any theory or appreciation class. In fact, I use principles that I learned in those classes almost daily.

Most of the musical history and theory I know I learned on my own, years later, out of curiosity. The books they assigned in college were almost without exception unreadably bad. None of the landmarks of musicology were even mentioned.

Finally, @ Kingston: Being a concert 'classical' musician is really f**king hard. Very few people who try actually make the grade. The ones who do are pretty single minded. Saying that they lack something because they can't improvise is akin to saying that a jazz musician lacks something because he or she doesn't recognize the difference between a mordent and an appogiatura.

[Kingston]

Finally, @ Kingston: Being a concert 'classical' musician is really f**king hard. Very few people who try actually make the grade. The ones who do are pretty single minded. Saying that they lack something because they can't improvise is akin to saying that a jazz musician lacks something because he or she doesn't recognize the difference between a mordent and an appogiatura.

Oh I don't know. There's such a powerful musical education system in place here in finland we have an abundance of orchestras and the excellent musicians. I suppose the reputation of the quality finnish classical music is well deserved.

[nuffink]

Finally, @ Kingston: Being a concert 'classical' musician is really f**king hard. Very few people who try actually make the grade. The ones who do are pretty single minded. Saying that they lack something because they can't improvise is akin to saying that a jazz musician lacks something because he or she doesn't recognize the difference between a mordent and an appogiatura.

Nah. You can't compare the wonder that is improvisation with a little technical detail like that.