Modal Chord Progression basics.

[nuffink]

nuffink,

Thanks for your input here, your presence in these theory threads always seems to be a catalyst to 'opening them up' to a much more detailed in-depth disussion even though I often struggle with what is subsequently presented, states, I think, that using the Tertian chords (I had to look that up) of a mode will always make the result 'sound' in the underlying key?
I understand this as I often struggle with trying to get a passage to sound 'modal-enough' in quality (hence the post).

Would anyone be willing to post some (written out) examples of non-tertian chords for a given mode and highlight why they are particularly suited to the mode please? If the example mode was a mode of C Maj then this would be easier/quicker for me to grasp.

nuffink you then go on to say that, should I want to stay in the (Lydian) mode, I could modulate from F Lydian over F Maj to D Lydian over D Maj.
I have two questions on this, firstly why did you choose D as the target from F, and secondly, as both F Maj and D Maj are both Tertian chords why did you choose them?

The only answer I can (currently) see for the choice of the F Maj and D Maj is that you are presenting two choices - one being to use non-Tertian chords, and the second to use Tertian chords (F and D). Maybe the latter modulation to give variety?

[I've been listening to Maiden Voyage since you posted (HH is cool) but had no concept that it's Mixolydian I'm afraid - which is 'unfortunate' as I practice Mixolydian too... It simply doesn't 'sound' Mixolydian compared to how I'd always been playing the mode (rock/blues) however I then picked up a guitar and sure enough Bb Mixolydian seems to fit, at the start at least.]

Basically I don't have a problem just using one chord to highlight the modal character of the melody, but for sure, it would be nice to have a few more choices if I wanted to add a bit more 'interest' or variation.

Really I'm looking for how to choose the optimum chord(s) avaiable to me to highlight any given mode.

Where you (nuffink) then go on to suggest that:

..you can play modal or you can play changes. Integrating the two is difficult.

Are you saying that 'playing modal' is playing over one or two chords (as in your F Lydian example that modulated to D) and 'playing changes' is playing in the originating keys diatonic chords?

Deric, I think you understood just fine. I picked the F - D progression for no better reason than Herbie uses it the link I posted. I chose Fmaj and Dmaj because we were discussing a piece in Lydian mode and the tertian chord built upon the first degree of the Lydian is a maj(7).

I could have followed my own advice and suggested non-tertian examples
Fmaj7sus2
Fmaj7sus4
F6
F6sus2
F6sus4
Basically any chord containing the 2nd 4th or 6th of the mode (bearing in mind the 4th is sharpened in Lydian so maybe that should be Fmaj7sus#4. Sascha will probably know)

[nuffink]

Since it's a shame MadBrain's excellent post was knocked off by mine starting a new page...

I'd suggest taking a look at quartal harmony. Some modes voice very well in fourths.

For this, I'll use a notation based on sus4: Bbsus4/C for instance. Note that there are other ways to write that chord: Ebsus2/C, "F47/C"...

F Lydian mode can be played as Esus4/F. This chord includes the 3rd, 7th and #4th, and is has a rather peaceful sound (it also works well in progressions, for playing the bII for instance). Another possible chord is G/F, which is close to the I II chord progression some have suggested. (my favourite way of playing lydian is 7#11 chords, but that's not really lydian mode)

C ionian and G mixolydian have a couple possible quartal chords: Bsus4/C, Esus4/C (and Bsus4/G)... Mixolydian doesn't really have a great quartal chord, but it has lots of nice sus chords - F/G works so well, and if that's not enough you can play C F B with G bass. (or G13, voiced as F B E with G bass).

D Dorian mode is super easy: just play Dm13. For quartal harmony, Bbsus4/C sounds nice.

A Aolian mode has a quartal chord almost custom built for it: Csus4/A. It's an awesome chord to play in progressions, by the way, it's a bit like a minor sus chord, and you can chain it with Dsus4/B, Dbsus4/Bb, Bsus4/G#, Bbsus4/C... they will all make a neat transition for your progression.

E phrygian sounds good with a susb9 chord (Esusb9 is ususally voiced as Dm/E). This has a sort of dire feeling, which is nice, and can be played for just about as long as you want. In theory, Csus4/E would work, but that's an extremely dissonant chord and imho only works in progressions (such as maybe Csus4/E Csus4/Eb).

[Deric]

<...gulp!...>

nuffink, MadBrain, thank you... I'll be back later I just need to get busy with a pen and paper and all of the above...

Why-o-why is the answer never 2+2=4...?

[Sascha Franck]

MadBrain: Great post!

Btw, it seems I sort of misread your original question, Deric.
I was thinking you were looking for some ways to "establish" whatever modal sounds. Hence my notion of the "use IV-V of the parent scale method". The audio samples I was about to post go along these lines as well. If you still want them, I'll happily post them, though.

[Deric]

I written all this out and it looks like this (thanks MadBrain for keeping all of your Mode examples in the Key of C Maj).

nuffink I see that you have listed a choice of chords for F Lydian and that all should sound 'right' under F Lydian as they all contain the same notes of the mode:

F Lydian - F G A B C D E

FMaj7Sus2 - F G C E

FMaj7Sus4 - F B C E

F6 - F A C D

F6Sus2 - F G C

F6Sus4 - F B C


MadBrain I had a few problems with some of your comments, I'll include all (for anyone else's sake) and highlight the areas I am still confused about:

Again F Lydian:

ESus4/F - F A B E

I can, again, see that this fits perfectly with this mode.

You then state that this

...it also works well in progressions, for playing the bII for instance...

What does this mean?

I also see that your suggestion of:

G/F - F G B D

Also fits perfectly but am confused by your following comment:

...which is close to the I II chord progression...

C Ionian and G Mixolydian: (C,D,E,F,[G,A,B),C,D,E,F]

ESus4/C - C E A B - Perfect fit.

F/G - G F A C - Perfect fit.

BSus4/C - C B E F#*

BSus4/G - G B E F#*


*Do you use this and tend to avoid playing the F in C Ionian and G Mixolydian?

D Dorian - D,E,F,G,A,B,C

Dm13 - D F G A B - Perfect fit.


A Aeolian: A,B,C,D,E,F,G

CSus4/A - A C F G

BSus4/G - B E F# G*

*Again do you avoid the F in A Aeolian?

...and you can chain it with Dsus4/B, Dbsus4/Bb, Bsus4/G#, Bbsus4/C...

I can see that DSus4/B works very well but I'm afraid I don't understand the use of DbSus4/Bb & BbSus4/C here at all. With the BSus4/G# do you just steer clear of hitting a G? Or do these (Db & Bb Sus4) and the BSus4/G# represent a modulation? Either way could this be explained please?

So it seems that it's, roughly, being suggested that I can use a variety as long as the note of the chords match the notes in the mode scale - which makes perfect sense. Then just choose the chord 'flavour' that most suits the passage/atmosphere.

How do you know this? i.e. How do I learn this? I can't imagine that everyone carries around a pocket-book full of these chord-note-mode relations... Equally I can't imagine how long it must take to memorise each and every chord in all keys in order to be able to 'pick something suitable' or even a shortlist selection. I could use the notes I've made on all of the above posts but then what if I'm in, for example, A Lydian? i.e. How can I now go about trying to learn this?

Thank you again for the time and effort that's been put into this post's responses!

Cheers!

Deric.

[Deric]

...I was thinking you were looking for some ways to "establish" whatever modal sounds. Hence my notion of the "use IV-V of the parent scale method". The audio samples I was about to post go along these lines as well. If you still want them, I'll happily post them, though.

Yes please Sascha! Any help with any/all of this would be very much appreciated!

What I was specifically after was how to 'emphasise the modal-ness' of a melody I may be playing in a certain mode. i.e. How to know which chords are available for me to choose from that help the 'flavour' of mode stand out.

Any help with this and with your modal examples over the IV,V would be great Sascha, as I noted earlier I had never approached modes (and modal practice) in this way so I've no doubt it will be educational.

Cheers Sascha!

Edit: Good to see you returned Sascha - I was wondering if you'd been punished for burning the dinner!

[MadBrain]

Again F Lydian:
ESus4/F - F A B E
I can, again, see that this fits perfectly with this mode.

You then state that this

...it also works well in progressions, for playing the bII for instance...

What does this mean?

Well, let's start with a standard Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 progression. You can alter the I into a bII. The bII is often played as bIImaj7, but Isus4/bII gives extra effect: Dm7 G7 Csus4/Db. Another alteration is turning the V into bII, which is a tritonic substitution. That way, you can play: Dm7 Csus4/Db Cmaj7.

I also see that your suggestion of:
G/F - F G B D
Also fits perfectly but am confused by your following comment:

...which is close to the I II chord progression...

Just that, say, Cmaj Dmaj Cmaj Dmaj sounds very similar to Cmaj D/C Cmaj D/C.

C Ionian and G Mixolydian: (C,D,E,F,[G,A,B),C,D,E,F]
ESus4/C - C E A B - Perfect fit.
F/G - G F A C - Perfect fit.
BSus4/C - C B E F#*
BSus4/G - G B E F#*

*Do you use this and tend to avoid playing the F in C Ionian and G Mixolydian?

Whoops! Sorry, I messed up there. Bsus4/C is the chord for lydian mode (see above), and Bsus4/G is for ionian mode. What I wanted to say was actually Asus4/C (which is pretty much a voicing for C69). Same thing goes for G, I actually meant Esus4/G (which is once again pretty much a voicing for G69).

D Dorian - D,E,F,G,A,B,C

Dm13 - D F G A B - Perfect fit.

A Aeolian: A,B,C,D,E,F,G

CSus4/A - A C F G

BSus4/G - B E F# G*

*Again do you avoid the F in A Aeolian?

Csus4/A is the chord for aeolian mode. I don't think I mentionned Bsus4/G for aeolian mode... if I did, I messed up again. Bsus4/G is the chord for G ionian.

...and you can chain it with Dsus4/B, Dbsus4/Bb, Bsus4/G#, Bbsus4/C...

I can see that DSus4/B works very well but I'm afraid I don't understand the use of DbSus4/Bb & BbSus4/C here at all. With the BSus4/G# do you just steer clear of hitting a G? Or do these (Db & Bb Sus4) and the BSus4/G# represent a modulation? Either way could this be explained please?

These chords are just transpositions of the aeolian chord (except Bbsus4/C, which should be Ebsus4/C). Using multiple aeolian chords in a row isn't very modal at all, it's one of those flashy chord progressions you can use in chord progression heavy songs. Example: Am7 Dsus4/B Esus4/C# Dm7.

So it seems that it's, roughly, being suggested that I can use a variety as long as the note of the chords match the notes in the mode scale - which makes perfect sense. Then just choose the chord 'flavour' that most suits the passage/atmosphere.

How do you know this? i.e. How do I learn this? I can't imagine that everyone carries around a pocket-book full of these chord-note-mode relations... Equally I can't imagine how long it must take to memorise each and every chord in all keys in order to be able to 'pick something suitable' or even a shortlist selection. I could use the notes I've made on all of the above posts but then what if I'm in, for example, A Lydian? i.e. How can I now go about trying to learn this?

Well, for quartal chords, they're basically all the same over a different bass... just try a sus4 chord (or sus2 or 47) over every possible bass note, and you'll get 12 different chords (3 are very dissonant, 2 are minor, 4 are "sus" ie. they don't have 3rds, 3 are major).

In general, each mode/scale can by expressed as a chord, and generally, different chords for a same scale are interchangeable. Dm7, Dm9, Dm11, Dm13, Csus4/D are all roughly the same, so you can associate a chord to each mode/scale and consider the other ways of playing that mode as just different voicings of a same chord. Inversely, each chord corresponds to a scale - even crazy alterated chords like 7b9 or 7#11.

Thank you again for the time and effort that's been put into this post's responses!

Cheers!

Deric.

You're welcome