Modal Chord Progression basics.

[Deric]

Can anyone state the basic formula(s) for working out which chords are most suitable for a harmony given a mode being used for the melody?

e.g. Say I want a section to 'sound Lydian' and have a melody that uses a Lydian scale pattern.

Assuming I'm happy accenting the 'mode-defining' notes of this scale in my melody what approach(es) can I take to determine the 'most suitable' chords to use to enforce the (in this case Lydian) modal character?

A plain English answer with, preferably, a position-in-the-key formula would be ideal!

[Toxikator]

You can determine the chords of a mode by just taking every other note and stacking them.

For example, in F Lydian, the chords can be drawn from

FGABCDEF

by taking every other note in sets of three or four (or more, depending on your style):

FAC(E)(GBD)
GBD(F)(ACE)
ACE(G)(BDF)
BDF(A)(CEG)
CEG(B)(DFA)
DFA(C)(EGB)
EGB(D)(FAC)
FAC(E)(GBD)

the first three are the triad, the next one is the diatonic 7th, and the rest are "options" or "extensions". Some music uses the triad with the rest as extensions (classically-influenced) while other music uses primarily 7th chords with the rest as extensions or the occasional reduction to the triad (jazz-influenced)

You would then stick those chords in "to taste" (there's a lot more going on but you said to keep it simple) so that notes matched up.

So if your melody for one part is built on F, you might stick in FAC. If the next notes were built on G and B, you might play a GBD chord... you could also play an EGB chord, or an EGBD or CEGB chord... etc. That would be based on how you though it sounded.

Really, there's much MORE to chord choice, including circle progressions, chord classes, chromaticism, and nonharmonic tone choice, but this is just simple harmonization stuff.

[Deric]

Thanks Toxicator,

I guess what I was trying to ask was something like this:

"What chords can be used to underline/strengthen the modal sound of the melody?"

Or maybe:

"How do you choose chords to sound 'modal' given a particular mode?"

Unless I've misread your post I can't see that (in the example you use F Lydian - key of C Major) there is any suggestion of using the chords of C Major key to imply that the given progression is in Lydian as opposed to C Major Ionian.

I'm sorry but I just don't know how to phrase the question better.

[Toxikator]

Well if you really want to "IMPLY" the Lydian mode, I'd focus on the I-II (rather than I-ii) progression; it sounds great, and is highly distinct from the Major mode. You can really use anything that calls attention to the +4, but I'd advise against using the ivo... I suppose the vii would work well to.

[Sascha Franck]

I'm actually too lazy (or knackered) to post any actual examples right now, but Toxikator is pretty much on the right path...

Alright, I'm not sure why, when and how I found out, but all the modes can be sort of "triggered" by using the IV and V chords (plain triads that is) of the "underlying" major scale.

Ok, this might sound rather cryptic, so here's some examples.

Let's assume we want to establish the dorian mode.
For this example, let's take E dorian.
Now, as we (hopefully) know, E dorian is the second degree of the D major scale.
The IV and V chords (as said, let's stick to plain triads for now) in D major are G and A.

What to do now?
Easy: Have whatever bass/drone establishing the E root. Play G and A triads against it. They will more or less automatically establish the dorian character, as all the important notes are in (basically, in this case, the 6th, which is the 3rd of the A triad).

Same example, this time for lydian.
Let's again assume we want to establish E lydian. The "parent" major scale would happen to be B major. Our IV and V triads in B major would be E and F# (just what Toxikator said, I and II).
Play them over an E bassnote pattern and you're in lydian land already.

Mixolydian?
Again dealing with E, the parent scale would be A major. IV and V triads would be D and E. Just play them over an E in the bass.

Aeolian (aka natural minor)?
For our E root, this would mean we're dealing with a parent scale of C major. IV and V triads would be F and G. Superimpose them over the E bass...

Ionian (aka major)?
For our E root, that'd be E major. Superimpose some A and B triads over it.

Locrian?
Yes, even that is possible (would sound WAY less stable than any of the others though).
For our E root, the parent scale would be F major. IV and V chords: Bb and C. Play them on top of the E bass.

This should probably get you started. I could come up with some examples tomorrow (I think I even have some already recorded ones, not sure whether I can find them quickly).

[Deric]

Sascha thank you for taking the time to provide a comprehensive response on this.

TBH I'd completely misunderstood Toxicator's second response regarding the I,II with the example in F Lydian (C Major key).

I had read it as "Use the I,II of the underlying key" which (in F Lydian) would have been C Maj, and D Maj and the 'reason' for this being that D Maj has as an F# - and hence Toxicator's reference to the +4, as opposed to the ii which would be D min with an F as the third.

I figured the rationale for this was that a scale built in Lydian has a raised fourth when its interval steps are compared to Ionian.

I appreciate it was very late when you posted your detailed response but I am confused about your example with E Dorian. I'll write it out so that you can see my thinking and also that it may be of use to others (I appreciate that you know the following):

D Maj: D E F# G A B C#

E Dorian: E F# G A B C# D

So Dorian has a minor-third and a minor-seventh - which in the case of E Dorian are G and D.

i.e. The only notes that have a step-wise difference (in terms of scale interval steps) compared to D Ionian are G and D, yet you state that the "important note" is C# (the third of A Maj).

C# is the seventh note of D Ionian and the sixth of E Dorian - why is this note the important note? Particularly as it is neither of the notes that define the Dorian interval pattern?

I am happy that you state that, in order to establish the mode, it is played over a drone that matches the root of the mode and this makes complete sense to me, but I'm still lost on the significance of the IV, V, chords here.

I hope I've explained why I'm confused about this clearly enough for you to help!

[Sascha Franck]

So Dorian has a minor-third and a minor-seventh - which in the case of E Dorian are G and D.

Correct - but what's setting it apart from "plain" (aka natural, aka aeolian) minor is the major 6th. This is what makes our minor scale dorian.
The same goes for lydian, the note setting it apart from plain (ionian) major is the raised 4th.

i.e. The only notes that have a step-wise difference (in terms of scale interval steps) compared to D Ionian are G and D, yet you state that the "important note" is C# (the third of A Maj).

Hm, sorry, but this I don't understand.
Oh... wait - ok, I seem to catch it - you mean, the scale degrees compared to ionian. Of course you're right with that, but when it comes to modes, it makes quite some sense to compare them to the closest possible "natural" scale. In case of dorian, we (obviously) perceive it as minor - so we're comparing the differences between natural minor and dorian. And the difference here is the natural 6th. You may even read about it as the "dorian 6th".

I am happy that you state that, in order to establish the mode, it is played over a drone that matches the root of the mode and this makes complete sense to me, but I'm still lost on the significance of the IV, V, chords here.

Well, the IV and V chords represent any given major scale perfectly. There might be a few other chord movements which would suffice as well, but IV and V defenitely is the most easy one.
Think about it: Do we have any other "major triad moves up a wholetone to next major triad" situation in a major scale? No, we don't.
So, even when we stop to think about modes, let's take any such a major triad movement, say, Bb to C. Clearly a IV-V movement in F major, there's no other options (as long as we don't consider modulations and other scales). And as much as the IV to V movement instantly implies whatever major tonality, it does the same in establishing a mode when using other notes of that scale as a drone/root.

Does that make more sense?

I'm gonna record a few examples right now.

[Toxikator]

TBH I'd completely misunderstood Toxicator's second response regarding the I,II with the example in F Lydian (C Major key).

I had read it as "Use the I,II of the underlying key" which (in F Lydian) would have been C Maj, and D Maj and the 'reason' for this being that D Maj has as an F# - and hence Toxicator's reference to the +4, as opposed to the ii which would be D min with an F as the third.

You didn't misunderstand me, that's exactly what I meant.

I figure it's just a major scale unless you call attention to the #4 scale degree, but I don't like the diminished chord in a non-leading tone position. Sort of like when you play the Phrygian mode; you would AVOID calling attention to the V dim. chord, you might even alter it to be a MajV.

Wait. Or no? In F Lydian the chords I'd want you to play would be FMaj and GMaj. I'm not sure there's even a DMaj in FLydian at all.

[Deric]

Sascha,

So if I understand you are saying that the most important and/or defining note of a mode is the note that is different compared to the next closest mode?

Are you also saying that the notes that are different compared to the 'parent' scale (Ionian) are of little relevance (I guess unless the mode the Major in quality)?

I am happy that the IV,V define the key (and as you state, that these are the only adjacent Major chords in a Major key) - so it is for this reason that you seem to be saying that the IV,V will always underpin the quality of mode?

If the above is correct, then yes, it does make sense!

Yes some examples would be great!

Toxicator, no there is no DMaj in F Lydian. I thought you were doing non-diatonic substitution with the II for the original ii as your wrote:

...I'd focus on the I-II (rather than I-ii) progression; it sounds great, and is highly distinct from the Major mode...

However I found this slightly confusing as, while I believe I understood the reasoning behind why Toxicator wrote it, F Lydian does not contain an F#.

Therefore DMaj would sound dissonant against F Lydian.

[nuffink]

Deric,

There is more bollocks talked about playing modal than just about any other topic in theory. Here's some more.

If you're playing F Lydian the tertian chords are exactly the same as C major (Ionain) and if you start playing chord progressions using them it sounds like C major played by someone who knows f**k all about how chords function. Play a repeated V-I in F lydian and it sounds like I-IV in C major. Because it is.

What can you do about this?

First you can stop trying to play chord progressions. Most modal jazz standards consist of long passages of the same chord. Modal jazz developed as a reaction to the lightning chord changes of bebop. It's about concentrating on melody not harmony.

If you're hell bent on chord progressions emphasise the non-tertian chords in the Lydian. Again it's no accident that many modal tunes are based upon sus chords.

Then you can modulate. If you want to play the Lydian mode, play F Lydian over an F major chord followed buy D Lydian over a D major chord.

Take a look at Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage, a classic piece of modal jazz...
http://www.songtrellis.com/picture$833
...you'll see all these techniques used (albeit he's using the Mixolydian over sus chords).

In short you can play modal or you can play changes. Integrating the two is difficult.

[Sascha Franck]

So if I understand you are saying that the most important and/or defining note of a mode is the note that is different compared to the next closest mode?

More or less, yes.
Of course there's no "absolute truth" in any such statements. But as our western ears are pretty much used to either ionian or aeolian, it makes sense to compare the various major or minor modes to what we're used to, doesn't it?

Are you also saying that the notes that are different compared to the 'parent' scale (Ionian) are of little relevance (I guess unless the mode the Major in quality)?

I'm really sorry, but I don't seem to understand this question.

I am happy that the IV,V define the key (and as you state, that these are the only adjacent Major chords in a Major key) - so it is for this reason that you seem to be saying that the IV,V will always underpin the quality of mode?

Well, I am not saying that playing the IV and V chords of a parent scale over another root is a "must" to establish modes, but it happened to be a very nice way to sort of explore the "character" of a mode from a players point of view.
Most often (as nuffink said), a single chord is just fine to establish a mode, especially when you play the right notes on top of it. So, theoretically, you can just treat each minor7 chord vamp as dorian (common practice, really) and you can as well treat each major7 chord vamp as lydian (outside of jazz this might be less than common practice, I think ionian is just used as often). The same goes for mixolydian, you can just treat any dom7 or dom7sus4 vamp like it (again, very common practice). Less obvious are phrygian and locrian modes. The first having too much "avoid" notes in case there's just a minor chord vamp (b13 and b9), the latter being based on a rather "unstable" min7b5 chord.

So, to recap, in modal based music, we usually find 3 "classes" of chords:

1) Major7. You can use either ionian or lydian for those, depending on the context. In case your piano player establishs some sort of sus4->3 movement, lydian is rather pointless. In case he's playing a #11, lydian is a must. In case nothing like that happens, it's up to you. It also pretty much depends on whether you're moving to another modal chord at one time or not.

2) Minor7. You can basically use aeolian, dorian or phrygian for this. Again, it depends on the chord and context. A min7/9 chord doesn't match with phrygian, a typical funky vamp with some 5-6-7 movement is asking for dorian. In most jazzy contexts, dorian is the preferred mode on minor7 vamps, but you may hear a lot of aeolian stuff from, say, Miles Davis or George Benson as well. Personally, I usually prefer dorian, probably due to the brighter character and a less likely "clash" of the minor 6th against the 5th.

3) Dominant7 or dom7sus4. Mixolydian is almost a given for those kinda chords. But, on plain dom7 chords (without the sus4 established at all), you may hear some mixolydian #11 stuff as well. But as that is a degree of the melodic minor scale, we will forget about it for now.

Yes some examples would be great!

I'm already done with some but will have to go shopping now and then cook something. You know, a demanding GF and all that...

And nuffink: What's so strange about Mr. Hancock using mixolydian over a sus4 chord? In "Maiden Voyage" it's all 7sus4 chords, so mixolydian would be the most obvious, almost the only choice.

[nuffink]

And nuffink: What's so strange about Mr. Hancock using mixolydian over a sus4 chord? In "Maiden Voyage" it's all 7sus4 chords, so mixolydian would be the most obvious, almost the only choice.

Nothing strange at all. I was just clarifying because, up until then, the discussion had been about the Lydian (and by implication major chords).

[Toxikator]

Nuffink: true to a point, but certain modal progressions really do stick out. For example, while it's true that a V-I in Lydian may sound like a I-IV in major (due to the proximity and strength of these two progressions), it's not always going to work out like that...?

For example, the motion from i-II REALLY conjures up the Phrygian mode in my mind, where it could be said by your parallel that the i-II would sound like a v-VI in the natural minor. In fact, the motion from i-II (as I understand it) is so distinctive that it gets used in otherwise mainly minor mode compositions, hence the Neapolitan chord. So if you do a lot with i-II-vii-I you definitely lose the minor mode feel.

I wonder if the reason for the V-I in the Lydian's ambiguity doesn't come from the fact that I-IV is also a very common and powerful progression; which is why I recommended the I-II, since it differs so much from the I-ii of the parallel major.

My experience with modality stops at the Phrygian and Locrian, and even then I do a lot of Dominant alteration so the line between the modality and the b2 of the N6 and b5 of the Aug6 chords is kind of a blurry one...

[Deric]

Blimey...

Perhaps I should have written my OP more clearly, what I'm trying to find out is how to determine the most suitable chord(s) to highlight a 'modal atmosphere/flavour' in a section/passage.

I chose F Lydian for no other reason than its diatonic chords are from C Major - I assumed this would make it easier (for me) to see how/why whichever chords were suggested were being put forward.

Please have patience with the following as I am going to attempt to summarise my understanding of what has been written so far as there is now a lot of information here and I really do want to get this...

Sascha,

If I understand you are suggesting that modes can be viewed relative to either the Ionian or Aeolian mode (depending on whether the mode is Major or Minor) and that the 'important note' of the mode is that which differs from the Ionian/Aeolian respectively.
I can understand this approach but agree that it doesn't tell the whole story or "absolute truth" but by this 'method' you are identifying the 'important note' of the mode?

This is what I was trying to clarify with:

Are you also saying that the notes that are different compared to the 'parent' scale (Ionian) are of little relevance (I guess unless the mode the Major in quality)?

Admittedly I've worded this incorrectly/poorly. I was trying to acsertain whether the 'most important/defining' note(s) of a mode are the note(s) that differ from the Ionian or from the Aeolian. i.e. The Dorian example stated has a 'step-wise' difference compared to the Ionian of the 3rd and the 7th (both being flat), whereas the Dorian is differenct to the Aeolian in that it's 6th is sharp.
I think I may have answered my own question here - you are saying that 'unless the 6th of the Dorian is emphasised' it could be thought of as Aeolian and therefore ambiguous? Therefore it is this note (6th) that is important?

I also understand that you are telling me that playing the mode over the IV,V with a drone on the 'mode's root' is a 'convenient' way to explore/feel the mode in context of the originating/fundamental key?
Again I can understand this and have, to date, practised modes over a mode-root drone (which becomes a bit mind numbing, in my case, after about ten minutes), however I haven't practised them over a IV,V cycle.

Then everything got a bit more complicated.

nuffink,

Thanks for your input here, your presence in these theory threads always seems to be a catalyst to 'opening them up' to a much more detailed in-depth disussion even though I often struggle with what is subsequently presented, states, I think, that using the Tertian chords (I had to look that up) of a mode will always make the result 'sound' in the underlying key?
I understand this as I often struggle with trying to get a passage to sound 'modal-enough' in quality (hence the post).

Would anyone be willing to post some (written out) examples of non-tertian chords for a given mode and highlight why they are particularly suited to the mode please? If the example mode was a mode of C Maj then this would be easier/quicker for me to grasp.

nuffink you then go on to say that, should I want to stay in the (Lydian) mode, I could modulate from F Lydian over F Maj to D Lydian over D Maj.
I have two questions on this, firstly why did you choose D as the target from F, and secondly, as both F Maj and D Maj are both Tertian chords why did you choose them?

The only answer I can (currently) see for the choice of the F Maj and D Maj is that you are presenting two choices - one being to use non-Tertian chords, and the second to use Tertian chords (F and D). Maybe the latter modulation to give variety?

[I've been listening to Maiden Voyage since you posted (HH is cool) but had no concept that it's Mixolydian I'm afraid - which is 'unfortunate' as I practice Mixolydian too... It simply doesn't 'sound' Mixolydian compared to how I'd always been playing the mode (rock/blues) however I then picked up a guitar and sure enough Bb Mixolydian seems to fit, at the start at least.]

Basically I don't have a problem just using one chord to highlight the modal character of the melody, but for sure, it would be nice to have a few more choices if I wanted to add a bit more 'interest' or variation.

Really I'm looking for how to choose the optimum chord(s) avaiable to me to highlight any given mode.

Where you (nuffink) then go on to suggest that:

..you can play modal or you can play changes. Integrating the two is difficult.

Are you saying that 'playing modal' is playing over one or two chords (as in your F Lydian example that modulated to D) and 'playing changes' is playing in the originating keys diatonic chords?

Sascha,

You then post a break down of three common chord types and state which modes can be used over them (including exceptions) which is kind of the reverse of how I was looking at it (i.e. I was starting with the mode and trying to find the optimal chord(s) but I can see that it amounts to the same thing.

So are you saying that I can use Ionian or Lydian over the Maj7 chord because both Ionian and Lydian have a Major 3rd and Major 7th? Ditto this thinking for the other (Minor7, and Dominant7/Dominant7Sus4)?

At the risk of causing you severe rolling-pin damage from the GF some audio examples would be a great help when you can make the time without fear.

Anyway simple(?) written out explanations of the use of non-Tertian chords and how/why the fit would also be much appreciated.

I'd like to think that, once I understood, the above I'd have a lot more of an informed choice to make a suitable one/more chord vamp to fit under a modal melody that suited the mood/style of the piece. (insert fingers-crossed and praying emoticon here)

Again sorry (to both of you) for all the questions but I guess it's of little use unless I can confirm that I understand what the answers mean.

Cheers,

Deric.

Edit: Now to stop that Maiden Voyage playing...

[MadBrain]

I'd suggest taking a look at quartal harmony. Some modes voice very well in fourths.

For this, I'll use a notation based on sus4: Bbsus4/C for instance. Note that there are other ways to write that chord: Ebsus2/C, "F47/C"...

F Lydian mode can be played as Esus4/F. This chord includes the 3rd, 7th and #4th, and is has a rather peaceful sound (it also works well in progressions, for playing the bII for instance). Another possible chord is G/F, which is close to the I II chord progression some have suggested. (my favourite way of playing lydian is 7#11 chords, but that's not really lydian mode)

C ionian and G mixolydian have a couple possible quartal chords: Bsus4/C, Esus4/C (and Bsus4/G)... Mixolydian doesn't really have a great quartal chord, but it has lots of nice sus chords - F/G works so well, and if that's not enough you can play C F B with G bass. (or G13, voiced as F B E with G bass).

D Dorian mode is super easy: just play Dm13. For quartal harmony, Bbsus4/C sounds nice.

A Aolian mode has a quartal chord almost custom built for it: Csus4/A. It's an awesome chord to play in progressions, by the way, it's a bit like a minor sus chord, and you can chain it with Dsus4/B, Dbsus4/Bb, Bsus4/G#, Bbsus4/C... they will all make a neat transition for your progression.

E phrygian sounds good with a susb9 chord (Esusb9 is ususally voiced as Dm/E). This has a sort of dire feeling, which is nice, and can be played for just about as long as you want. In theory, Csus4/E would work, but that's an extremely dissonant chord and imho only works in progressions (such as maybe Csus4/E Csus4/Eb).